The EDL

Topics which don't quite fit into any other category

The EDL

Postby Nathan » 29 Jun 2013, 19:26

We've got so many references to the EDL in other threads across the site, but I think it's best to have a dedicated thread to them, which I will start off by showing this video of Tommy Robinson and Kevin Carroll being attacked and then arrested for doing a charity walk in honour of Lee Rigby on Armed Forces Day (I don't fully understand all the ins and outs of what permission had been given or denied). This video will prove useful one day to historians trying to get their heads round the fact that yes, 2013 really was this bad:

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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 29 Jun 2013, 20:47

Complicated thoughts...

I am glad that the EDL exists, because it shows that there is some fighting spirit among white Brits (though, on the evidence so far, it is mostly confined to one particular section of white Brits: the disillusioned working-class). However, I think it's almost as if the EDL has come about too soon. If it existed in a time when Muslims were rioting, I could understand what the EDL existed for: to literally physically protect British towns and native Brits from rioting Muslims.

But that's not the situation. Muslims aren't rioting and they are not posing a risk to British people, at least not a risk that the EDL can hope to defend against. (Are the EDL going to swoop in when a white girl is groomed? No, because nobody hears about that until long after the fact.)

Therefore, people are bound to wonder what the EDL are trying to achieve, and the assumed answer is bound to be: "they're trying to antagonise Muslims and provoke civil unrest". We keep talking about how it's only the working-class EDL who are voicing opposition to Islam, and somehow the middle-class need to be mobilised - but nothing is going to turn the middle-class away faster than a group that goes around trying to trigger civil unrest.

Now, if the objective is indeed to provoke violent reaction from Muslims and thus trigger civil unrest, then maybe I am being really naive and idealistic but I would appreciate some honesty about that objective and for us all to stop pretending that they're a peaceful organisation that, quel surprise, have somehow antagonised Muslims yet again. If, on the other hand, the objective is merely what EDL supporters claim it to be (a peaceful charity walk, etc.) then I think they are naive and idealistic in believing that their activities are not going to cause disorder.

Either way, the EDL marching through heavily Islamic areas is clearly going to result in violent clashes, so I don't think it's at all surprising that the police have arrested Tommy Robinson and Kevin Carroll in order to prevent violence before it occurs.

What, but civil unrest, would be achieved by marching in places like Woolwich and Tower Hamlets? Maybe it's something more subtle: the EDL is being aggressive towards Muslims, but in a pre-emptive fashion, showing Muslim communities that, if they get out of order at any point in the future, the EDL exist and will come and sort them out. Is that what the point of these walks is?

I don't mean to poo-poo the EDL or to criticise the only group in Britain that is making a visible stand against Islam. Everybody here knows what I think about Islam being in Britain (I want it out, completely). But we have to be smart about it. Not too smart for our own good, but smart enough that the habitual white-haters, the Guardianistas, the devout liberals, can't just say afterwards that everything would have been hunkydory if we had been better-behaved. And smart enough that the establishment doesn't just tarnish, emasculate and imprison us before we've achieved anything.

If Islam is ever ejected from Britain, and I hope to God that it one day is, I don't doubt that the EDL might well be involved, but I think it will be first and foremost because Muslims have shown themselves to be an untenable proposition. We should let them get on with doing that, instead of playing right into their hands.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 29 Jun 2013, 21:32

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I am reluctant to endorse the EDL completely, mainly because of some of the kinds of people they have in their ranks.

However, if two English people who are against Islam wish to walk through an Islamic area on a charity walk then it seems to me they should have every right to do so. In fact the police should give them an escort, if required. It's surely legally irrelevant if they are "a bit rough around the edges". You don't go arresting those doing the charity walk rather than those on camera attacking them. That seems to me utterly absurd.

Seeing the policewoman unable to justify her actions to these two men was very odd (I think this was the very same officer who obstructed TR at another event, strangely enough). The police themselves seemed to see how absurd the situation was. They probably want Islam out of the UK, too. The EDL are not urging any violence. I believe those committing or urging violence are the ones who should be arrested. We are supposed to have freedom of speech in the UK, for everyone, not just for the middle and upper classes (and Islamic hate preachers).

I think this video will confuse and surprise many abroad. It is surely confirmation that there are now no-go areas in the UK for people who are opposed to Islam. In fact you will be arrested (for your own safety?!) if you try to go into those areas.

As for what the EDL are trying to achieve, well, we've all seen the videos, the interviews. It's raising awareness of all the double standards, the creeping sharia, self segregation, halal, much else. I think they are changing the Overton Window a little too, even though they are mostly lower working class. It is becoming more acceptable to object to Islam.

So why did the police arrest them? That's the interesting one to me. Well, they would have been under instruction - it was obviously a trumped up charge. It's just the policy of appeasement, I think. Avoid trouble now, even if that means much more further down the line. That's clearly official policy. I don't like it. I may be wrong, but I don't think Churchill, Powell or even Mrs Thatcher would have liked it, either.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 29 Jun 2013, 22:13

Just to be clear, Gavin, I think that working-class people should have as much right to free speech as anybody else. I am not trying to cast aspersions on the EDL at all, and certainly not "because" they are mostly working-class.

It would be very easy for me to get fully onboard with this and object to every little thing that is done to the EDL, especially this arrest. I'm just trying to be careful. I want to weigh everything up, and try to see it as it will be seen by the liberal-left. My concern is that we (people who are against Islam) could be scoring massive own goals for the mid/long term by positioning ourselves as the antagonists, and Muslims as the poor, hard-done-by people whom we "just won't give a chance".

Perhaps it is because I am acutely aware of how liberals will see this stuff. The liberal will by default side with the Muslims, even on the very day that two of their number brutally murdered one of our soldiers. And when liberals are against you, that means the entire media and political establishment are against you.

Then again, it is possible that the sheer absurdity of arresting people simply for going into a Muslim area will hit home to a lot of liberals, since it is in itself a very anti-liberal thing for police to do, and maybe they will start to question the project they're defending.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Caleb » 30 Jun 2013, 02:38

Elliott: If the liberal section of society is going to side against you no matter what happens, even when someone (forget that he was a soldier for a moment -- he was a person, someone's son, husband and father) is hacked to death in the street, then why be concerned what they think? If you play their game by their rules, you, as a conservative, are not even allowed to exist.

I don't know what the EDL are trying to achieve, but why put them on the defensive? Why should they have to justify their existence, their desire to walk through parts of their own country or celebrate their culture? Muslims are allowed to harass returned soldiers and spit on them. What is that about, if not to either get a reaction or make society cower? Why don't they have to justify their actions, their presence?

The EDL may be jumping the gun, I think you're right about that. Yet is waiting until Britain burns the solution, or can a society try to save itself before it gets that far out of hand? Because the thing is this. Let's imagine some future scenario of civil unrest even where native Britons win (which is by no means guaranteed) and British culture is restored. Yet what would British culture be then?

It may be like trying to revive a dead or near dead language, or revive a species that had come close to extinction from two surviving members of that species. You're going to have big problems with the future gene pool of that species. If you were to consult the massive amount of information available on say, medieval Britain, do you think you could recreate a functional, medieval British town of 200 people, all working, speaking and acting entirely authentically? Or would it kind of resemble one of those "historic" tourist sites where you watch the blacksmith make a horseshoe, and then see him later on a break sending a text message to his girlfriend?

You may get to a point where, even if Britain didn't become a quasi-police state, British culture may be irrevocably changed for the worse within one or two generations. People all over the world have entered declines before, even whilst remaining intact as people.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 02 Jul 2013, 01:19

Incredible:

Image

In case you can't see that image, it's a tweet from Tommy Robinson:

Bedfordshire police just called me to say don't retweet death threats or I'd be arrested as they cause people distress? I f***ing kid u not!
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Re: The EDL

Postby Caleb » 02 Jul 2013, 12:37

He should keep retweeting them. They're going to arrest him? What about arresting the people making the death threats? Your country is bizarre. The authorities are clearly showing their hand now, yet they could make a martyr out of him.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Nathan » 02 Jul 2013, 13:06

I've never been on Twitter: is there a quote function whereby EDL fans could all retweet these death threats after they have appeared on TR's account? I'd like to see them try and arrest thousands of people all at once!

That video I linked to in the OP is already nearing 500,000 views after three days, with 15,000+ comments. That's a lot of people who if they didn't know full well what was going on before, they do now.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 04 Jul 2013, 20:27

On this, no, TR would have to first retweet the tweet to his followers, unless it was also addressed to someone else who retweeted it. Then others could retweet it.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 03 Aug 2013, 22:41

What's the betting that the government will proscribe (when they should be prescribing) the EDL and Liberty GB (if they ever grow in popularity) in due course?

The Dutch did this with Geert Wilders - tried him in court for inciting religious hatred when he pointed out that Islam does this. This is because he was becoming too popular. When they realised i) he had a lot of evidence and could out-argue them and ii) the whole trial was just increasing his profile and popularity, they called a halt to proceedings, finding him innocent. It was just a warning shot, then, but from a ruling elite that ultimately will lose.

So I see this happening in the UK too at some point. Labour would probably have proscribed the EDL already. We will see!
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 04 Aug 2013, 02:18

It's an interesting idea but personally I think things are too far-gone for any government to get away with doing this. They could proscribe Liberty GB (but then why haven't they done it with the BNP?) but the EDL are too well-known. Any government that tried to silence the EDL would be publicly outing themselves as a bunch of cowardly, effete quislings. They are that, of course, but they don't want the broad mass of the public to realise it.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 06 Aug 2013, 15:02

Tim Stanley of the Telegraph has written a very smug smear attempt of the EDL. Tommy Robinson was naive enough to tweet a link to an anti-Semitic website. Of course I think this was both stupid and wrong, but I also think it is very cheap of the upper-middle-class chatterati to use this one incident to smear the EDL as anti-Semitic. In all likelihood, Robinson had not read the full article. Of course he still shouldn't have linked to the website, but I cannot help feeling disgusted by the smug treachery of Tim Stanley:

The difference between most of us and Tommy, however, is that we don't obsess about immigration and angrily tweet about the Muslim takeover of Britain all day – so we don't tend to encounter those sorts of ugly websites.


Comments are closed, of course, so as usual the public have no way to interact with the soothsaying class and are instead expected to just accept the drivel they say on the most important issue of our age.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 06 Aug 2013, 15:13

People are very keen to do this, aren't they? They ignore 99% of someone's message and deliberately pick out one single line which they may be able to fault. I don't mind saying that I believe the whole ideology of the Left is flawed.

It's easy to accidentally link to the wrong site too, because you have seen a line that may be good. We can't always be expected to have the time to examine a site very closely. Anyway, the given line may be good wherever it is from - it does not necessarily mean one supports the entire site. Yet more fallacious liberal induction.

I notice they chose the worst photograph they could too: TR in an angry pose. Well, he has a lot to be angry about. They certainly do come across as smug, some of these journalists. They should be on the side of, at least, the concerns of the EDL. Pat said it well.

As for the comments, if they don't allow at all then I don't think their articles should be read any more. I didn't read Tim Stanley's.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 06 Aug 2013, 15:23

By the way, I notice Tommy is indeed continuing to retweet the daily death threats he receives, because nobody is being arrested.

Why is no-one doing anything? Well, Tommy has a few things working against him: he's white, he's male, he's working class and he's not a feminist. He's just a guy fighting against a backward totalitarian ideology and trying to preserve the culture of his country. That's enough to get him blacklisted (if I am still allowed to use that word) and for the law not to be applied evenly.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 06 Aug 2013, 15:34

I agree, Gavin. It really is disgusting how TR has been thrown to the dogs.
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