The EDL

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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 08 Oct 2013, 15:24

I heard about this on the World Service news earlier and am still analysing it. Comment is busy over at the BBC:

Screen Shot 2013-10-08 at 16.19.49.png
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Re: The EDL

Postby Nathan » 08 Oct 2013, 15:39

That came as a shock to me, though I suppose the distance between the nice PC ideals of the EDL it liked to portray on its website was too far removed from the views and behaviour of some of its more troublesome members. I can imagine a lot of the EDL rank and file feeling extremely let down by this. Call me pessimistic, but perhaps this is evidence that there simply is no nice and PC way to deal the problem of a hostile, aggressive Trojan within our gates?

As long as actually saying publicly what so many people think privately about the behaviour of a section of the community remains the domain of aggressive and combative people then it is no wonder that groups like the EDL are always so fractious and short-lived.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 08 Oct 2013, 18:23

Nathan wrote:perhaps this is evidence that there simply is no nice and PC way to deal with the problem of a hostile, aggressive Trojan within our gates?


I think you've hit the nail on the head. When objecting to the dispossession of your race, ethnicity, culture and religion, there is simply no way to appear open-minded about it: by definition, the objection marks the limit of open-mindedness.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 08 Oct 2013, 21:05

This has been the top news story, no less, on the BBC, all day. I guess they're delighted about it. It is at least allowing Tommy to get the information on air that he and his family receive death threats from Muslims every day - information that is otherwise carefully ignored by the BBC.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Nathan » 08 Oct 2013, 21:29

I've always been reluctant to believe these conspiracy theories about there being a malevolent, Sovietesque hidden hand at play in such matters, firstly because of the lack of verifiable evidence around and secondly because I would still like to believe such underhand practices just couldn't take root in this country and things were more straightforward, but one explanation as to why TR has denounced the organisation he went through so much for and why the state should have gone so far to persecute the man with constant arrests et al (and which would explain why he ran the gauntlet of hostile interview after hostile interview on the BBC almost every day for a time a few months back, just as public sympathy for the EDL was at its highest after the Woolwich attacks) can be found here.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 08 Oct 2013, 21:58

Further to my above comment, I just listened to an interview with Tommy Robinson on the BBC's The World Tonight programme. This was conducted by Woman's Hour presenter Ritula Shah. Here is a picture of Ms Shah at the "Asian Women of Achievement Awards", which openly discriminates by race (and gender).

Shah was hostile, as the BBC always are, and totally ignored Mr Robinson's references to the daily death threats made upon his family by Muslims. She frequently referred to the EDL as "far right", "extreme", "radical" etc. and wanted Tommy Robinson to say whether he distances himself from its principles, which he does not.

Following the interview, the BBC got some academic "social scientist" on, who also referred to the EDL as "far right", "radical", "extreme", etc. and said that Tommy Robinson was "radicalised". No criticism of Islam, of course. I contrasted this with my current reading of Geert Wilders' book. Wilders presents the other point of view in detail, but it is a point of view that is un-PC, so unairable on the BBC. I wondered what this useful idiot academic would say to Churchill's, Jefferson's and Roosevelt's skepticism and warnings about Islam. Also those of the sixth American president John Quincy Adams, who wrote: "the precept of the Koran is perpetual war against all who deny that Mahomet is the prophet of God". I suppose he thinks he knows better.

Goodwin noticed that TR would not distance himself from the "radical" aims of the EDL - which are to oppose Islamic extremism within the UK - so he remained suspicious, whereas I was, of course, pleased. He said that he (very naively, I must add) had "expected" TR to completely renounce the EDL and his past involvement with it.

My only concern was whether TR had been pushed or argued into this by the security services, or whether this was his own decision. My view is that it is probably his own decision. He's tired. He has a criminal trial coming up. He has a young family constantly being threatened with death and neither the police nor the mainstream media are on his side. Also, there are elements within the EDL whom he cannot control - of course he can't: it's a loose organisation. This is a move to ease the pressure on himself a little (understandable) - perhaps even get into some kind of paid role (he must have no money). He knows the Qur'an preaches division and hatred of unbelievers. He hasn't suddenly "undiscovered" that! This is a pragmatic move.

I would say I am sure TR will remain a patriot, but then he and the EDL are actually pro-multiculturalism anyway. I don't think he will sell out totally, though, and quite apart from any thuggish characteristics he may or may not have, I admire him for having fought for this long. Contrary the expectations of that academic, it is clear that members of the EDL have also taken this news well and are grateful to him for the time he has put in and the personal risks he has taken so far.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 08 Oct 2013, 22:07

I just saw your post after writing mine, Nathan. "The Quilliam Foundation" - sounds almost like "The Quisling Foundation", doesn't it? I will be interested in any views on my views - and I think the next thing is to consider what effect this might have on the future of the EDL and the political landscape of the UK. Will people run to the BNP, or to UKIP. Or will a new star rise in the EDL, one who can enforce order. Will UKIP speak about Islam? I think not - it's clear they have decided "not to go there" - not until they have a much stronger position, anyway.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Nathan » 08 Oct 2013, 22:31

I'd never heard of the Quiliam Foundation until today, but a brief look at their website and Quisling Foundation seems just the right name!

I suppose it should be borne in mind that TR is fairly young, only about 30 years old, and from a very different background to the powers that be. Adding that to the reasons that you mentioned, it is not so difficult to imagine him feeling a little out of his depth.

I don't think there is any future at all for the BNP - too toxic a public image, too much infighting typical of relatively young, loose organisations filled with hotheads. As far as the EDL go, I struggle to see how anybody can reconcile the need to appear PC and respectable with the wishes of so many of the rank and file who don't feel bound by these constraints.

Judging by the tone of the comments on Islam-related articles like these two, it's striking how people's views on Islam don't seem to factor at all into voting patterns.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Lindsey » 08 Oct 2013, 23:54

I have to applaud the courage of TD, Dawkins and Sam Harris, and a few others who have spoken out in public against Islam , organisations such as the EDL are always going to be too easy to brand racist , yet it's worth reminding the defenders of Islam that Islam is not a race. It is frequently mongered by the BBC that it is in some way racist or narrow minded to be anti-Islamic . It is not. And in fact, any rational , compassionate person should be anti-Islamic. If a set of entrenched ideals cannot be openly criticised then we do not live in a democracy , and this restriction of criticism that is the real radicalism.
However I have my reservations about what groups like the EDL can achieve. There are many jump on the band wagon spoiling for a fight, though the EDL want to stay away from this it's true that manyembers will not. My town has seen two EDL marches in the last two years with enormous police presence. The march was contained well off the high street, and was peaceful but I suspect it wouldn't be had the police not been there. Just last week I was in the bus station when an argument broke out between some white girls and a group of Muslim youths in full dress (I don't know what the white attire is called I'm afraid) given how upset the girls were , and the muslim men were standing forward argtessively, I think the men started whatever argument was going on, but the atmosphere is tinder dry , it's like everybody is just....waiting for "it" to happen. Soon a crowd gathered and what was a small argument drowned by its own echoes attracted some shouts of "EDL, EDL!" in the kind of football chant you hear in stadiums. Had the Muslim youths been older a fight may well have broken out , but sensing they were out numbered they left shouting "we're British citizens too yeah!". I don't know what to make of the incident, other than the fact EDL has become the chant of aggression to signify the white men's hostility.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Caleb » 09 Oct 2013, 00:37

Without someone who wants moderation and to work within the traditional British means (democracy, peaceful social protest, etc.) the irony is that the EDL will now become more extreme. Whilst TR may have felt like he couldn't control things before, they will almost certainly get worse without him. There will be a feeling amongst the general membership that working within the system didn't work, and so the new leader who emerges will be decidedly more extreme. The degree to which the EDL will fail or succeed will indeed be to do with how much discipline is wielded from the top, but it won't be the discipline to moderate people. It will be the discipline to get away with things. The attitude won't be "don't be an idiot and blow up a mosque". It will be "don't be an idiot and get caught". Things may appear to settle down for a little while (but that will only be so that the EDL can sort out its internal politics), but I predict that things will simply get worse and there will be a series of tit-for-tat responses by EDL members and Muslims. Perhaps this won't happen for a few years, but the underlying issues that the EDL are concerned about won't go away, and so the (EDL) reactions to those issues won't go away either. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. This is as true of politics as it is of physics.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 09 Oct 2013, 04:59

These are all very interesting posts. My own prediction of how it will go is two-pronged:

  • the gentle public, who have hitherto agreed with the EDL's take on Islam but have not joined it because of the thuggish element, and have only retained any "faith" in it because of the presence of Tommy Robinson, will now abandon the EDL and certainly will not get involved with it. It'd be just too dangerous for middle-class types to mix with thugs.
  • the EDL itself will become more violent, and for that reason will probably burn itself out in a few years' time out of disgrace after some members are secretly filmed beating up a Muslim - or even more absurd, a Sikh whom they thought was Muslim. However, by the time the EDL dissolves, the situation will probably have got worse and more tense than it is now. The EDL will collapse into many splinter groups, and one of them will match the tenor of the day. And it won't be a pleasant tenor or a pleasant group.

As for Tommy Robinson, God knows what his involvement with this Quilliam Foundation is all about. It strikes me as an uneducated and exhausted guy being taken in by well-heleled and well-funded quislings, in order to destroy his organisation and discredit the man himself, show him to be unsteady and unreliable. This is exactly the effect the move has had on at least some elements; I now fear for TR's life, not because of Muslims but because of white thugs who regard him as a traitor. I am subscribed to a Facebook group called "Britain First" and another called "The New Daily Patriot", and these groups are calling for his head. (Yes, I've done my bit to protest that the man is free to do what he wants, and that it is disgraceful to be saying such things about him. They have ignored me - I guess that's what happens when middle-class types get involved with thuggish groups.)
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Re: The EDL

Postby Jonathan » 09 Oct 2013, 08:45

I've only read the article at the link, but it seems to support the distinction which we saw between the ideas TR espoused and the behavior of his followers.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 09 Oct 2013, 13:48

I think Tommy was bullied by circumstances into submission, but then I suppose they also asked him where he saw the EDL going as a street movement - what was it going to achieve? This is, I must admit, a valid question. A loose organisation containing a few neo-Nazis, hard to really do much. All they could do is repeatedly be arrested and have bottles thrown at them for trying to walk through Muslim areas. That's been seen and has been logged by any right-thinking people as disgusting, what now? It does have to be politics.

But what party will come out and say that they simply do not want an Islamic influence in the UK, at all? Only Liberty GB, I think, and they remain virtually unknown.

This seems a good moment to remember one of Tommy Robinson's (I think) best comments. Some BBC liberal said to him "But these are not extremists, these are moderates". He replied "Well, you wouldn't say that about Nazis, would you? You wouldn't say 'This one doesn't matter - he's only a moderate Nazi'". I thought he hit on something good there.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Nathan » 09 Oct 2013, 13:50

Do you know if Paul Weston has said anything about all this, Gavin?
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 09 Oct 2013, 14:05

No. Paul Weston gave Twitter a little try a while ago but stopped. Again it's just relentlessly fighting with any unintelligent liberal who wants to comment. It's a thankless task, I am sure - it was the same for Tommy, batting away death threats and insults all day every day. I couldn't do that. I think I would want to just write more substantive stuff, as for example Fjordman does, and ignore the unintelligent, even though they are an ever growing number (thanks to benefits).

I have seen some good writers on Liberty GB - Paul Austin Murphy, Enza Ferreri. I haven't seen Paul comment there for a while. Mind you Liberty GB had already distanced themselves somewhat from the EDL. I'm afraid that in terms of electoral potential UKIP are shaping up as the only hope - the only question is whether they really can be trusted to save Britain. Do they have any Muslims in their party yet? I must admit it would not surprise me if they did that soon.
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