The EDL

Topics which don't quite fit into any other category

Re: The EDL

Postby Caleb » 12 Sep 2013, 23:06

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy though. Anyone disagreeing with the official line on MC is always branded racist, extreme right, etc. Therefore, no one from the middle class would dare touch that with a ten foot pole. Anyone who did would quite likely lose his white collar job. That's part of how the MC/PC crowd get away with this. There are probably lots and lots of average people who don't like the way Britain (and other places) is now, but they won't speak up because there would be real consequences for them. So, there are people in a handful of intellectual positions who can do so, such as Douglas Murray, because they're privately funded one way or another. Then there are the people in the EDL. I don't know what those guys do for a living, but I suspect most are probably self-employed tradesmen or something of the sort where they can participate in politics like this without blow back to any sort of career precisely because everyone they deal with is pretty similar to them. Or they're just so utterly disenfranchised and have so little to lose now (particularly economically) that they don't care.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 13 Sep 2013, 05:45

I think Jonathan is right that the working-class, historically, have been more vocal about immigration and the rough, brawling types are stereotypically the ones who are less likely to care about having fashionable views.

But I think, in 2013, it must be true that millions of middle-class Brits are beginning to have serious doubts about immigration, especially multiculturalism, especially Islam. I can't believe that it is still just a working-class issue.

So why aren't these middle-class professionals joining the EDL? Partly because of the need to keep their jobs, partly because the EDL is a distinctly working-class organisation, and partly because it is still considered low-grade, racist and unintelligent to be anti-immigration. To a certain extent, middle-class self-image relies on having the "correct" view on these issues. I don't think that will change for a long time yet. In fact I don't know what it will take to change it; given that we've already had 7/7, countless Muslim paedophile gangs and all the rest of it, you'd think the middle-class would be ready to stop judging each other for having sane views on Islam - but they're not, and any middle-class dinner party would be utterly ruined if somebody voiced the opinions that we voice on this forum.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Jonathan » 13 Sep 2013, 07:18

Caleb wrote:It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy though. Anyone disagreeing with the official line on MC is always branded racist, extreme right, etc. Therefore, no one from the middle class would dare touch that with a ten foot pole.


It's a self-fulfilling prophecy only to the extent that people rely on social circles and the media to talk about the EDL. Admittedly, this is a very great extent, but each such demonstration is a golden opportunity to break the circle for each person who witnesses it, whether in person or through a video untouched by PC editors. The question should be - is this opportunity being seized, or missed?

Elliott wrote:So why aren't these middle-class professionals joining the EDL?


Well, maybe they're having the same reaction I have: I could comfortably embrace these principles, but I could not comfortably associate with these people. I have never raised the middle finger at strangers, I have never made threatening gestures in unison, I have never silenced an opponent by intimidation. Neither have my friends, family, acquaintances or colleagues. The most I have done is should political slogans at a rally - much like the anti-EDL protester did before he was shouted down.

So I suspect that as long as the behavior at rallies is dominated by the lower-class members, these protests will not attract many new middle-class members like me, regardless of the good ideas and charisma of Tommy Robinson. But even if he accepted this analysis, he could not enforce a change in behavior precisely because the EDL is not a fascist organization. Of course, if he instituted some paramilitary practices - say, official membership, partial uniforms, ranks and discipline - he might better control the behavior of his lower-class members, thereby attracting the sympathies of precisely those people who now stay away because "the EDL is fascist". The irony is delicious.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Yessica » 13 Sep 2013, 08:04

Jonathan is spot on.

Let me first state I am not opposed to muslims, but I am opposed to radical Islam.

What do I dislike about radical muslims (apart from their tendency to blow themselves up in public places, treating their wifes worse than cattle, wanting to stone infidels to death and so on)?
Well... one thing I dislike is the fact that they do not respect the State and they do not respect their fellow men. They will turn over police cars and so on. Now Nathan mentioned the EDL turned over a police car. Now where is the difference?

If you do people will not believe you if you tell them you want to protect your State. You are attacking it's civil officers. That is symbolic.

I am worried about the thread to public safety the muslim extremist pose... now if the EDL are just as big a thread to public order, why should I join them (and become a thread to public order myself???)?
Middle class people just do not like public unrest.

If the EDL really is just opposed to extremist islam and not anti-semitic and so on there will be many middle class persons who identify with this.

Of course, if he instituted some paramilitary practices - say, official membership, partial uniforms, ranks and discipline - he might better control the behavior of his lower-class members, thereby attracting the sympathies of precisely those people who now stay away because "the EDL is fascist". The irony is delicious.


This is the one sentence I do not agree on. Uniforms, rank and discipiline are by no means facist or any army world (may be apart from those runned by African war lords) would be facist.
Also I do not need to wear and uniform or be told-off by someone who out-ranks me in order not to behave like a thug. All I need is a little self-restraint... and I really mean a little.

By the way it feels forbidden for me to talk about the EDL without saying how much you hate everything about them. Do you feel the same?
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 13 Sep 2013, 11:19

Another obstacle to middle-class people joining the EDL is that most of them don't have a personal grievance against Muslims. They don't live in Muslim areas, their daughters aren't being pursued by Muslim men, and they probably haven't experienced verbal/physical abuse from Muslims. Therefore, if they joined the EDL everybody would ask "why?"

It's the same thing that gives me reservations about the EDL in general. How many of the people on those marches have a personal grievance against Muslims? What are they actually protesting for? And why choose heavily Islamic areas like Tower Hamlets to march through, unless you are deliberately trying to antagonise Muslims for the sake of it?

I don't want Muslims in my country - make no mistake about it - but I still wouldn't go on an EDL-style march against them. It seems absurd. All it can achieve is the impression (perhaps correct) that you are trying to stoke racial/ethnic tensions, not that you are responding to a concrete threat. And if you are facing a concrete threat, you don't respond to it by marching through the enemy's territory, like a schoolyard gang trying to goad the other gang into throwing the first punch. These tactics play right into the hands of the liberal media who preach that Muslims are fine and the only people who would object to their presence are mindless thugs spoiling for a fight.

If I'm thinking along these lines, I expect many middle-class people are too. They perceive the threat from Islam, but they know that marching through Islamic areas is a ridiculous way to respond to that threat. Muslims will be antagonised, and liberals will say "well? What did you expect? You antagonised Muslims. You didn't make them feel welcome. You are the problem, not Muslims."
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Re: The EDL

Postby Jonathan » 13 Sep 2013, 12:55

Yessica wrote:This is the one sentence I do not agree on. Uniforms, rank and discipiline are by no means facist or any army world (may be apart from those runned by African war lords) would be facist.


Your objection is quite correct - I was trying to be brief, and did not make my meaning clear.

However, the organization of civilians into paramilitary organizations was one of the first steps on the road to power of the Fascists in Italy and the Nazis in Germany. I am not suggesting that every organization that would use these techniques is evil like the Fascists and the Nazis - however, those who viewed them marching in the streets (if they had studied history) would be more strongly reminded of those evil groups, because of the superficial appearances. This should make them feel more wary, but (and here is the irony) it would probably make them feel more comfortable.

Also I do not need to wear and uniform or be told-off by someone who out-ranks me in order not to behave like a thug.


*You* don't. *They* do. It's a difference in character.

By the way it feels forbidden for me to talk about the EDL without saying how much you hate everything about them. Do you feel the same?


I've also felt exactly the same way. As soon as someone mentions how horrible the EDL is everyone feels obliged to repeat that opinion.


For the record, I think the EDL could definitely use this kind of organization. It carries risks, both regarding appearances (it might backfire make the EDL seem even more fascist) and in substance (it will concentrate power in a few hands, and they may abuse it). This risk will be avoided if the EDL binds itself to a higher purpose, but before I try to explain I must quote a question from Elliott's post...

Elliott wrote:What are they actually protesting for?


... because it is a perfect distillation of the problem. It also explains the behavior in that protest. A few hundred men march along in a confused mass. They are not attempting to convey any positive message. But when a provocateur attracts their attention, a dozen men turn to vent their spleen.

Perhaps I'm being unrealistic, but I can imagine a grand future for the EDL if it expands beyond a protest movement and becomes a vehicle for cultural revival. Men with skills should teach feckless youth, and take on the best as apprentices. Volunteers should teach school dropouts reading, writing, and British history. Local troupes could put on plays (Shakespeare, and little else). Adult men should go back to school, and by their presence there serve as an example to unruly teenagers who don't take it seriously.

Social pressure should encourage everyone to hold a job - any job - while improving themselves. Men and women should marry. Women should have no children out of wedlock. Men should support their children. Drugs and drunkenness would be frowned upon, and recidivists would be ostracized. Each member of the EDL - or at least, each ranking member - should see himself as an ambassador of English Culture. He should hold himself to a high standard in his private life, and a higher one in his public life.

If this were the EDL, then it would be clear what it stood *for*, and not just what it stood *against*. Its protesters would not sing "You're not English any more" - they would sing some new song which would remind its hearers what it *is* to be English, and that one can be proud to be English.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Caleb » 13 Sep 2013, 23:15

Elliott wrote:And if you are facing a concrete threat, you don't respond to it by marching through the enemy's territory, like a schoolyard gang trying to goad the other gang into throwing the first punch.


I understand what you are getting at. However, this attitude shows that you're on the back foot.

It's not the enemy's territory. It's British territory. Any citizen (and presumably any tourist for that matter) should be able to go anywhere in the entire country that is public property.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 13 Sep 2013, 23:32

I note the same things that Jonathan does about the EDL and I have been to two of their rallies. I am reluctant to endorse them entirely, because of the thuggish element they attract, but I think good explanations have been offered as to why this is the case: those are the people most affected, and they have nothing to lose.

The walk I attended in Northampton was dignified, actually, with the EDL certainly more presentable than UAF. I think one can be selective about the EDL: support their cause, but not necessarily everything about the people in it. The opposite of Islam, then: you can support some Muslims (to some degree), but not the cause (Islam).

I would also like to second Caleb's point above. These people should surely be able to walk wherever they like on public highways. Anything less is conceding ground, literally.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Yessica » 15 Sep 2013, 08:29

Jonathan wrote:
Yessica wrote:By the way it feels forbidden for me to talk about the EDL without saying how much you hate everything about them. Do you feel the same?


I've also felt exactly the same way. As soon as someone mentions how horrible the EDL is everyone feels obliged to repeat that opinion.


This is exactly how I feel. Even silence makes me fell un-pc.

My hand was trembling as I wrote my first post on this thread, it was trembling again as I wrote my second post and it is trembling now... but there is one thing I understand. If voicing your opinion about a topic makes you feel that way it is your duty as a citizen to talk about this topic.

Jonathan wrote:
Yessica wrote:Also I do not need to wear and uniform or be told-off by someone who out-ranks me in order not to behave like a thug.


*You* don't. *They* do. It's a difference in character.


But then character can be cultivated. As long as you do not have a severe mental illness behaving like a thug (or not) is a choice.

Jonathan wrote:Perhaps I'm being unrealistic, but I can imagine a grand future for the EDL if it expands beyond a protest movement and becomes a vehicle for cultural revival. Men with skills should teach feckless youth, and take on the best as apprentices. Volunteers should teach school dropouts reading, writing, and British history. Local troupes could put on plays (Shakespeare, and little else). Adult men should go back to school, and by their presence there serve as an example to unruly teenagers who don't take it seriously.

Social pressure should encourage everyone to hold a job - any job - while improving themselves. Men and women should marry. Women should have no children out of wedlock. Men should support their children. Drugs and drunkenness would be frowned upon, and recidivists would be ostracized. Each member of the EDL - or at least, each ranking member - should see himself as an ambassador of English Culture. He should hold himself to a high standard in his private life, and a higher one in his public life.

If this were the EDL, then it would be clear what it stood *for*, and not just what it stood *against*. Its protesters would not sing "You're not English any more" - they would sing some new song which would remind its hearers what it *is* to be English, and that one can be proud to be English.


That sounds like a great idea. Someone should encourage the EDL to do this.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 15 Sep 2013, 12:13

Yes, I think that's a good idea, Jonathan. The EDL should more demonstrate what being British should mean, rather than just protesting against anti-British threats such as Islam. That would be a good move and would make it much harder for the left-liberals to discredit them.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 18 Sep 2013, 09:12

Tim Stanley again demonstrates how to despise and betray your countrymen.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 18 Sep 2013, 11:23

That article beggars belief. Stanley explains that he would behave in a grossly unprofessional, nay criminal, manner because TR stands against the Islamisation of his country. No wonder the coward closed comments on it. By doing this he's ensuring he will be placed high on a list of people to be brought to account as and when a revolution comes, I would have thought.

I wonder what will happen to the staff member. And I wonder what would happen to me if I refused to serve a Muslim on the grounds that they supported an ideology of hate and division (and blatant nonsense).
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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 20 Sep 2013, 11:22

The interview below is about "national domestic extremism", so one might well assume it could be an investigation into the institutional bias at the BBC, about the missile throwing UAF or about the Islamists who have murdered so many people including one of our soldiers in broad daylight.

But instead it's about the EDL. The policeman interviewed explains the obvious: that the EDL are only a loose organisation and that the opposition are often more violent. He can't be too un-PC though, I suppose - he is on the BBC...

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Re: The EDL

Postby Gavin » 21 Sep 2013, 15:55

On the earlier reported story, it was good to see that Selfridges did not take an entirely cowardly line, though they should have sacked the Muslim for speaking to a customer in that manner. I think we can keep shopping in Selfridges. Harrods turned into "Arabs" some time ago, anyway.
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Re: The EDL

Postby Elliott » 08 Oct 2013, 15:10

A surprise development... Tommy Robinson and Kevin Carroll, the two "heads" of the EDL, have left the organisation claiming it has been taken over by neo-Nazis. Robinson appears to be renouncing not only the organisation as it currently is, but his own past involvement with it.
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