The Gaza War

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The Gaza War

Postby Rachel » 08 Aug 2014, 01:05

This should go under "Politics" or "Religion". But I am not in the mood to go into deep political analysis at the moment. I just want to write a few tit bits about this war from an alternative right wing Israeli viewpoint. If anyone wants to go deeper into the subject here, please feel free.

Jerusalem Post today (7/8) has a headline "Hamas: Ready for long war unless Israel accepts truce demands"
Oh Joy.

No European newspaper says that Hamas's whole constitution is about destroying all of Israel and turning the whole country Muslim. That is a serious and relevent fact to the war.

On the bright side:
Here is Hamas's marching song. It has become a big hit in Israel because Hamas released it in Hebrew and they sang it in mangled Hebrew with a bad accent so instead of being threatening, as intended, it became rather funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmL3lpXW4KU

Here is a translation of the song into English:

Attack! Cause mass injuries!
Go around causing shocks!
Liquidate all the Jews!
Shake Israel's security!
Undermine the Jews with every encounter!
Incinerate market-places and soldiers!
We will shake the security of Israel!
We will lay waste to it with torches and volcanoes!

Undermine the Jews with every encounter!
Incinerate market-places and soldiers!
We will shake the security of Israel!
We will lay waste to it with torches and volcanoes!
Volcanoes!!!

Nation of weakness and deception, they can't hold their position in war!
When they encounter mighty ones, they hide themselves like spiders in webs!
Nation of weakness and deception, they can't hold their position in war!
When they encounter mighty ones, they hide themselves like spiders in webs!

it carries on in this way for several verses...


Oh how I wonder why the BBC and Daily Mail haven't reported it. (Sarcastic)
It's all over the Israeli social networks and been on TV.
Rachel
 
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Re: The Gaza War

Postby Jonathan » 08 Aug 2014, 21:25

The French say, 'plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose'.

For anyone trying to understand why Israel and Hamas are acting as they are acting, the answer can be found in a few details in the Arab riots of 1929.

(Short version: Arabs rioted because of rumors the Jews wanted to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. 133 Jews were killed, mostly innocents, and 116 Arabs were killed, mostly attackers, and mostly killed by British policemen).

An excerpt from an Arab newspaper ("Palestine"):

"What reparations could you expect... after you provoked these riots, in which you fired with rifles, guns and bombs upon men armed only with sticks and stones? ... Can there be any understanding between aggressor and victim? Between home-owner and burglar? ... O naive Jews, hear the final word of the Arabs. No understanding between us is possible without the abolition of the Balfour declaration..."

The specific events referred to in this extract are as follows: On August 23, 1929 a mob of Arabs hundreds strong swarmed towards the Mea Shearim neighborhood after Friday prayers at the Al-Aqsa mosque. They were armed with cudgels and a few swords. If unopposed, they would have committed a massacre similar to the one in Hebron the next day (60 killed). But a handful of Jewish Hagana members were on hand to oppose them with two guns and a hand grenade. The mob panicked and dispersed, and no Jews were killed.

What happened? Feeling shamed and needing to restore their honor, a mob of Arabs attacked a Jewish neighborhood, thinking to find an easy target. They found the Jews prepared and resolute; their attack was thwarted, and they suffered more casualties. Their reaction? To howl in outrage at the unfairness of the fight they started.

Fast forward 85 years. The Arabs of Gaza fire rockets at Jews in Israel, thinking to find helpless targets. They find the Jews prepared both defensively (shelters, alarms, Iron Dome) and offensively. Their attack is thwarted, and they suffer greater casualties. Their reaction? To howl in outrage at the unfairness of it all.

Quite a few of the previous wars follow this pattern - 1967 (Six Day War) and 2006 (Second Lebanese war ) are perhaps the best examples, with 2002 (Defensive Shield) and 1982 (First Lebanese War) not far behind.

(Quotes are from "1929 - Year Zero of the Arab-Israeli Conflict" by Hillel Cohen, pages 205-206 (Hebrew) a book which would require about two pages of caveats before I recommended it to anyone).
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Re: The Gaza War

Postby Nathan » 09 Aug 2014, 20:34

You have my deepest sympathy having to live with neighbours like that!

It's perfectly obvious what the goal is on the Palestinians' side, but what's the realistic aim of this war for the Israelis when you are dealing with such a fanatical enemy? I get it that there are weapons and other military installations to destroy, but do you really think you could ever bash people like that hard enough to make them less troublesome?
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Re: The Gaza War

Postby Jonathan » 10 Aug 2014, 18:09

Thanks for the sympathy - it's not easy to come by these days.

Will sufficient bashing bring peace (or at least quiet)? That's the million dollar question. The six day war was pretty high up on the list as far as hard bashings go, but the result was a thirst for revenge which led to the Yom Kippur war six years later.

On the other hand, Hezbollah got hit pretty hard in 2006, and the Lebanese border has been very quiet ever since. This is all the more remarkable if you consider that Hezbollah's military action which triggered the war was in support of Hamas in Gaza, which was still under attack by Israel in the immediate aftermath of Gilad Schalit's abduction. Since then, Hamas has endured several incomparably more severe conflicts with Israel without Hezbollah firing so much as a missile in support.

It seems to me that Netanyahu's grand strategy with Hamas is first to keep the West Bank isolated from Hamas (which also prevents the PA from being overthrown in the West Bank as it was in Gaza), and second, to repay quiet with quiet, but respond to attacks. The degree of the response depends on many factors, both political, military and diplomatic, but an element of unpredictability is also necessary. Hezbollah was clearly not expecting a determined Israeli response in 2006, and this is part of the reason for they have been deterred since then.

The alternative option is to conquer the entire Gaza strip, comb the neighborhoods house by house, and kill or arrest as many Hamas members as possible. This is pretty much what Israel did in operation Defensive Shield in 2002 in the west bank. But in Gaza it will be much more difficult, with higher casualties on all sides. That's not the big problem, though. The big problem is what to do afterwards. That's why everyone's hoping that option A will work out, even if it takes ten rounds of fighting spread out over twenty years.
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Re: The Gaza War

Postby Gavin » 11 Aug 2014, 19:35

Geert Wilders on this issue.

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Re: The Gaza War

Postby Rachel » 12 Aug 2014, 18:55

Nathan wrote:It's perfectly obvious what the goal is on the Palestinians' side, but what's the realistic aim of this war for the Israelis when you are dealing with such a fanatical enemy? ...


At the moment the Israeli news says that the aim of the war is to destroy the tunnels. I think the aim should be destroy extremist Arab Islam in all forms in Gaza strip.
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Re: The Gaza War

Postby Rachel » 12 Aug 2014, 18:59

Thanks Jonathan for the history. I did not know about that book or those details of the 1929 massacre.

Moshe Feiglin from the settler part of Likud gave a third option, to the other two.
-Remove the any of the more innocent Palestinian civllians and temporarily put them in a few camps while the formerly populated areas are shelled from above, instead of wasting soliders lives in a ground invasion.
-Then the civillians could be returned. Gaza would be annexed and then rebuilt.
-According to surveys, 70% of Arabs in Gaza would be prepared to emigrate. Feiglin wants to give them money for emigration. For those who insist on staying there will be citizenship contingent on saying they have no connection to Hamas and they will have to sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel.

Like Jonathan says, the big problem is what to do afterwards.
This third part of Feiglin's plan: encouraging emigration of some Palestinians is problematic IMO. I don't think many European countries would want them if they had sense. The Arab countries, like Qater for example, need manpower and even share the language, religion and culture with the Palestinians but won't accept them.

Yet I still believe Israel will have to annex it in the end.

This slow fighting, with soldiers going in and out of Gaza like that Hokey Cokey song is terrible. It's not going to get rid of madmen firing rockets and wanting to destroy Israel.
It is only a matter of time before the Palestinians get ISIS in Gaza strip or start building unconventional weapon instead of missles. If ISIS gets in then they might start threatening Egypt's government too.
I think Israel will have to properly fight Gaza and annex it in the end, like was done with the Golan Heights. The town of Safed also used to have a Muslim population, so did Crete and South Cyprus.

I think Israelis will eventually become more right wing.
The ruling elites in Israel are still in the peace and negotiation mind set. They prefer diplomatic humiliation to defeating an enemy.
There are more religious 8 year old children in Israel, than secular children. In the future Israel will be more religious. If the change in demographics doesn't make the younger generation more right wing, then the constant missles from Hamas will.
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Re: The Gaza War

Postby Rachel » 12 Aug 2014, 19:08

Jonathan wrote:Will sufficient bashing bring peace (or at least quiet)? That's the million dollar question. The six day war was pretty high up on the list as far as hard bashings go, but the result was a thirst for revenge which led to the Yom Kippur war six years later.


They eased up after the Yom Kippur War though didn't they?
I think it would have stayed quiet without doing the peace with Egypt.

Maybe there is a certain level of violence that would bring quiet with the Arabs, and maybe that is the best we can get. I can't imagine permanent peace of the sort that exists in Europe.
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