Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Please feel free to introduce yourself
About this forum
This is a new section and up until a "reshuffle" in January 2013 users told a little about themselves in context in posts (often in their first posts), or above as they told how they heard of Dalrymple. Now though, if you would like to say a little more please feel free to start a thread with any title you like.

Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby JohnGladsmuir » 13 Aug 2013, 20:52

I had an epiphany about a year ago. I found Theodore Dalrymple by chance, then voraciously read essay after essay. It was a literary tonic that cleansed my dull, socialist, hippie mind. Although I now share a position with you on the Right of the spectrum, I don't share your station on the class stratum.
I hope to be a beneficial member of the forum.
Please feel free to ask me anything about life at the bottom, I won't be offended.
Please forgive my poor standard of writing.

John, 34, Edinburgh, unemployed.
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Gavin » 13 Aug 2013, 22:21

Welcome, John. Thanks also for your honesty! I think you may be a little self-effacing though, probably not a member of the underclass at all. You would need to be totally uncultured and not even interested in reading TD!

There is a certain clarity and truth when you read him which is impossible to deny. It's simultaneously horrifying and exhilarating (on both accounts because it is true). TD is a very hard enemy for the Left also because he is not only extraordinarily well read but also has far more first-hand experience than do virtually all of his critics. Furthermore, he is also obviously motivated by kindness and a desire for what is best, yet he prescribes the very opposite of left-wing received wisdom.

This combination does change some people, I think, because really they want to be changed. They want to be faced with the truth - and he writes it so well that it's a pleasure to read! It probably frightens others, particularly those who benefit financially from their place in left-wing bureaucratic state (and therefore by extension from the continued misery of others).

Feel free to lend your experience to any threads, and tell us whether you think you have been over-indulged by the state, or what the state should really do to improve the lot of people, or rather to help them improve their own lot.
Gavin
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Yessica » 13 Aug 2013, 23:01

Hi John,

I am glad you are here and looking forward to learning more about you.

I do have a few questions about live at the bottom. Where am I supposed to ask them? Right here or should there be another thread?

Looking foward to your contributions on this forum :)
Yessica
 
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Gavin » 13 Aug 2013, 23:18

I would put specific questions in the most relevant threads.
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Paul » 14 Aug 2013, 00:19

JohnGladsmuir wrote:I had an epiphany about a year ago. I found Theodore Dalrymple by chance, then voraciously read essay after essay. It was a literary tonic that cleansed my dull, socialist, hippie mind. Although I now share a position with you on the Right of the spectrum, I don't share your station on the class stratum.
I hope to be a beneficial member of the forum.
Please feel free to ask me anything about life at the bottom, I won't be offended.
Please forgive my poor standard of writing.

John, 34, Edinburgh, unemployed.



'Dull, socialist, hippie mind'.

Ho hum, I know where you are coming from there. Mind you, I am 16 years in advance of you and, hopefully, I was never wholly personally invested with left-wingery at all. I was however, surrounded by it, closely, by everyone I associated with. In a way, this was good. I'm well aware of what drives lefties and mostly know never to trust them.

And they're all idle and, I have to say, mainly dumb, in that emotionally retarded way they have.

(I always thought it was 'hippy', in the singular, but who cares?)
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Elliott » 14 Aug 2013, 04:14

John, you're the third forum user who lives in Scotland. Since I'm one of the other two, allow me to join Gavin in welcoming you to the forum.

I am looking forward to your contributions. I don't think you need to worry about your quality of writing; it seems good to me.

If you want to tell us more about your "conversion" (and there's no pressure to have given up all of your previous beliefs!) we have this thread: Ex-liberals: when were you mugged by reality? which may or may not be applicable to you.

As for the class thing, personally I believe class is important for the pragmatic reason that I value sophistication (being aware, being self-aware, being cultured, being polite, well-spoken, well-mannered...) and see class as the way that this is achieved in the real world. Most of us here are middle-class, a few working-class, none that I know of are aristocrats (though it would be glamorous, wouldn't it?). And none of us is the type to sneer at someone for having less money or coming from a rough background etc. God knows, and I've mentioned it often enough, that at present I don't have much money at all!

PS. Paul, apparently it is spelled "hippie". It never looks right to me either but it does seem to be the official spelling.
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Yessica » 14 Aug 2013, 07:06

I posted some questions on the forum about welfare and the underclass. You might want to look at them.

@ Paul: I do not agree that all leftists are dumb and lazy. If they all were leftism wouldn't be a great problem, would it?

T think they are just normal persons who happen to suffer from a set of erroneous beliefs and I am looking foward for having them fix their beliefs and join us at this board.
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Nathan » 14 Aug 2013, 16:13

John, I'm curious as to what you think makes you underclass aside from being unemployed?
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Paul » 15 Aug 2013, 02:47

Yessica wrote:I

@ Paul: I do not agree that all leftists are dumb and lazy. If they all were leftism wouldn't be a great problem, would it?

T think they are just normal persons who happen to suffer from a set of erroneous beliefs and I am looking foward for having them fix their beliefs and join us at this board.


It was a sweeping statement I made and a little coarse so apologies for that. It was born out of frustration and a complete lack of patience with them all.

Let's tackle laziness first. There's a huge underclass in the UK, as you may know. Very many of them are unemployed. More to the point, most of those (not all I will concede) are happily unemployed (insofar as they would be unhappy regularly employed) - though of course this doesn't prevent them complaining loudly most of the time, very often because they are required to do something, until recently very trivial, for the otherwise 'free life' they experience.

All these people who aim to go through life doing nothing will be lefties more than ever to the right, although I accept many of them are politically disinterested and probably unaware. Nonetheless, the ones who do choose (a diminishing number amongst all the populace) would always, I would say, choose the Labour Party. Their general sympathies and outlook will be to the left, even if they don't articulate it politically.

Nearly all the working-class are left-wing. The more militant, and always easily able to influence their followers, are usually to be found looking for any reason not to work, historically at least. There are less strikes and industrial action than used to be the case in the UK, but I grew up amidst a backdrop of that era and the excuses not to work were legion. They actually did help to bankrupt the country. We had to be bailed out by the IMF, and at the same time, everyone was on strike, complaining.

Many of the UK workforce are now inefficient (in fact standards are appalling in some areas), slipshod and even discourteous. TD has written of this now and then. It's linked somewhat to the phenomena of a preference now, in some trades, for East European workers rather than British ones, especially amongst the young. This will and is creating other problems of its own. Laziness is at the root of it though there are other factors.

Amongst the intellectual and middle-class left, how many of them actually do a real job? Many of them do a lot of floating about, making noises and spending other people's money. Quangos are rife and they will all be lefties at heart. I can well imagine that nearly all government employees will be lefties, including of course the many at the state broadcasting corporation (and the media in general). The greatest inefficiency is usually found in gov't departments or state institutions and laziness and disinterest is a great part of it.

I think there are about half a million people now employed in some capacity by the government in the role of civil servants. This number greatly expanded under the last Labour Gov't and hasn't likely to have reduced much since. Most all of those employees will be Labour sympathisers. They adore the government, the bigger the better. Many of them are employed in some way or another with the bloated welfare services.

By contrast, when Britain has an empire that straddled a quarter of the globe, the state had just 4000 civil servants. This was before socialism.

I grant that some lefties will be very driven and rush around endlessly and that some diehards may still be stout working-class men and women, but I don't imagine they count for a large proportion.

Basically, what I'm saying is that most of the population are left-wing and most of the population are lazy. Honestly, that's how it is.

Let's look at dumbness: I didn't mean that left-wingers are necessarily unintelligent or have low IQs. Paradoxically, many of them are indeed intelligent enough. I used the word 'dumb' as a politer form of the word stupid. Intelligent people can of course be stupid.

So, given the insincerity and foolhardiness of most (all?) socialist doctrines, are not people who follow them therefore dumb? Especially the intelligent who ought to know better? They're even dumber because they have the wit to see their follies, but choose not to.

More so, are lefties not dumb when they talk left-wing values to right-wing (or even centre moderate) people, and expect to be believed? You can deconstruct lefties on many issues quite easily (if you can stop them shouting like rude children) and they often see this but they will still stick to discredited theories throughout in the face of it. I think that's pretty dumb really.

It's also pretty dumb to be enslaved by one's own faux emotions and go through life floating on idealism, rather than realism. The tragedy is that the modern world permits it en masse.

Finally, remember the 'useful idiot' tag, that is correctly applied to most of the leftist population.

Anyway, thanks for the comment Yessica.

John - sorry for hijacking your thread. I'm not implying you are lazy. :-)
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Jonathan » 15 Aug 2013, 21:17

Nathan wrote:John, I'm curious as to what you think makes you underclass aside from being unemployed?


I hope you won't take it amiss if I'd second this question, John. These traits you mentioned - casual reading, catching an interest in a subject, and pursuing it by further reading - don't seem to fit so well with that description. I'm also curious why you thought it suitable.
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Re: Greetings from an underclass conservative.

Postby Yessica » 16 Aug 2013, 06:23

Jonathan wrote:
Nathan wrote:John, I'm curious as to what you think makes you underclass aside from being unemployed?


I hope you won't take it amiss if I'd second this question, John. These traits you mentioned - casual reading, catching an interest in a subject, and pursuing it by further reading - don't seem to fit so well with that description. I'm also curious why you thought it suitable.


Me too!
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