Feminism

Feminist ideology and the effect it has had upon society
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This is an example of one thread - Feminism - which has recently been turned into its own subforum. Thus we are currently breaking that very interesting, but very long, thread into sub-discussions where appropriate. This will leave the original thread with a lot of views while the new threads will apparently have fewer. They'll begin to catch up though.

Re: Feminism

Postby Yessica » 22 Dec 2013, 14:28

Paul, I am not a man. It would be odd if I understood them too well. It would mean that I might be transgendered or something like that.
I think that men and women both first and foremost are persons with their individual character. I would not say that I am like another person just because she is a woman and I am a woman. I assume the same to be true for men.
I have a father and brothers, a husband and a son and I think I get along with them okay. So I would not say I do not understand them at all.
There are however some thinks about the male character / some men's character I do not understand. Some are very sweet. For example I never knew how much a man could be protective of another grown-up person (his wife) and how much he has the desire to provide for her. As a woman I feel protective of my kid, but not to that extent of my husband.

I try to learn more about the diffenreces of men and women. So if there is something you wish to tell me feel free to do so :)

I am not sure if I agree with your example, Elliott. I am with a man (a very manly one) who "loves" rules.*
In fact I did not like rules very much before I married him. I followed them but mostly only because I did not want to get into trouble. Only because of being with him and because meeting other men like him I realized that some rules make sense such as keeping people safe. You mentioned that.
I as a woman however am not a person who would follow a rule or an order without asking why I need to do that.
My husband, who is a man, on the other hand, thinks that sometimes there is no time for explaining all rules in detail / learning about why they should be followed.

That is just about two people and does not say something about all men / women. From personal experinece I would say men like risks more but they also like rules more in order to control the risks which is only reasonable. You said that putting a fork in the toaster does not seem to be the best idea since sliced bread. I would like to agree.

I like the rules of political correctness just as little as you do.

Re "Secret Santa": I just asked my husband how he thinks about secret Santa. He feels it is quite embarassing and he wished he did not have to do it. There is however no getting away from it in his workplace. I never knew men did not like it.
Okay, when I start working again I will be outspoken against Secret Santa as for some reason it seems to be not liked by men.

* you might wonder why I say this because I wrote he was always in conflict with teachers and so on when he was younger and that is true, but when he grew up he changed his ways.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Yessica » 22 Dec 2013, 14:44

In addition to what I just said I think it is okay that there are things that the sexes do on their own.

I thought of examples from my country and was surprised that they could not be translated.

an example for the guys:

A Schützenverein (literally "marksmen club") is in German language countries a voluntary association featuring sport-shooting either on Olympic levels or historic weapons. [...]

The biggest head organisation in Germany for a "Schützenverein" is the "Deutscher Schützenbund" (DSB), originally founded in 1861 in Gotha and refounded after World War II in 1951 in Frankfurt (Main). It has about 15,000 clubs with about 1,500,000 members (Schützen), which makes it the third largest sports organisation in Germany. Legally recognized alternative head organisations include the "Bund Deutscher Sportschützen", "Bund der Militär- und Polizeischützen" and the "Deutsche Schießsport Union".[1] These offer a wider variety of shooting styles and competition types than the DSB, particularly in the field of large-bore firearms.
Non-European appearance.


A Schützenfest (German "marksmen's festival") is a traditional festival or fair featuring a target shooting competition in the cultures of both Germany and Switzerland.

At a Schützenfest, contestants compete based on their shooting abilities, for example by shooting at a wooden representation of an eagle. The winner of the competition becomes the 'Schützenkönig' ("king of marksmen") until the next year's competition.
from Wikipedia.

Now that it is Christmas the unmarried women of the region I was born will celebrate the Christmette soon. On the 24th of December they will gather in a dark church in the hours before midnight and sing and pray that Christ will bring the light to the world. Then when it is going to be midnight they will light candles and the reverend, the families and men will enter the church. There will be a church service then.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Gavin » 22 Dec 2013, 16:30

Re. "Secret Santa" (I nearly typed "Secret Satan" ;), the will of women dominates in the workplace, of course. If a man was to say he didn't want to take part, he'd been seen as an absolute killjoy (even though he might have a good sense of humour, but just see this as childish and an obligation he does not expect to encounter at his workplace). It would not be a good career move for him to eschew it, especially as the women dominate PR and so-called "HR" (even though they do not usually deeply understand the roles for which they are hiring). So he has to been seen to laugh along and participate. In this regard the workplace has been somewhat infantilised in the west in my view.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Paul » 22 Dec 2013, 22:09

Elliott wrote:"where men can be men"

One example of this, for Yessica, would be the fact that women tend to value security over freedom while men tend to value freedom over security. This means, in the workplace, that women prefer rules (in order to keep everyone safe and "on-task") while men prefer autonomy (so that each guy can do his work his own way, solve problems for himself, and make his own mark on things).

Of course there is always a need for some rules. Bureaucracy is a necessary evil. But too much of it is just awful, and destroys men's enthusiasm. The modern workplace is absolutely full of rules and regulations and any independent or unconventional thought is quickly frowned upon. This is an environment that has been designed to make women feel safe.

Now, I'm not saying that women are incapable of independent thought. Of course not. But they are far less interested in freedom than are men. And the result of inviting them into the workplace is that the workplace has had to be changed into something that men can barely stand. It is the arena of obsessive political correctness, for one thing.

Just one example: the word "brainstorm" had been a management buzzword for many years until, circa 2005, it became verboten because it was apparently offensive to epileptics*. So men, trying to get the job done and trying to solve problems and make progress, had to stop every time they accidentally used the word "brainstorm". What progress can be made when you have to stop and start mid-flow? Not much. This is anathema to men but probably doesn't bother women very much because they are less concerned with solving problems and more with being good and getting along with people.


When you read that, and take out any reference to men/women or mention that it's a gender observation, you might as well be reading a blueprint for Socialism in general, in particular paragraphs 1 - 3.

Paragraph 4 and the last line of paragraph 2 seem to me to be, whilst not necessarily 'wrong' in and of themselves, a kind of wishful thinking, a quasi-serious mindset where the realm of lofty ideas is more important than results. This hearkens to the recent Oxford speech by TD, in which he avers how Socialists live in a make-believe world with regards to human and societal nature.

It's nothing I and others haven't already observed and commented upon but once again - Feminism is akin to the first-born of Socialism, at least in the modern, post-war West, it's most prodigious child and has repaid its parent in spades by further enabling the mass spread of the Socialist dogma.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Paul » 22 Dec 2013, 23:36

Thanks Yessica

I wasn't saying you were dumb, or a lesser person, of course, for whatever level of understanding you do (or do not) have of males generally. I don't think you took it like that anyway.

I was going to ask in the OP if you had brothers and maybe (though not essentially) elder brothers but then I just plain forgot. And as per normally, a father you have and of course you are married. Indeed you know quite a good deal about males anyway then, and best of all maybe - you have a son.

It's just the particular and maybe excessive (or dominant) traits you would like to understand more. And yet you have come to understand more by being married and then by having your son. So it will go on one hopes and yet you are not now necessarily in the position of needing to understand too much more. By that I mean in the matter of choice and one hopes, in the matter of personal security. However you may wish to understand more (about all people, about the world, about everything) for the sake of knowledge itself which is obviously no bad thing.

As I mentioned on another thread - the pride males of lion societies for the ultra-dominant masculine traits. This is doubtless a crude analogy and instantly attracts the comment - 'but Man is not a base creature' and so on and I would obviously agree that we are not animals (as such) and we should observe and nurture the traits we have that separate us from the animal kingdom. Such is what we would call civilised creatures and with that magical-like 'free will' and rational thought, rather than base instinct.

But are we really totally and utterly divorced from the animal kingdom in every way? Obviously not. We still have to eat, sleep and drink almost every day along with other pretty basic bodily functions. From a clinical or 'machine' point of view most of these necessary activities could be seen as pretty repulsive and chaotic. But we aren't machines and to be so would not be human, and yet by being human we have to bear (or enjoy) many natural impulses and behaviours.

I think most all men can behave like pride males to a greater or lesser degree and for differing lengths of time and with shifting priorities. Most men like to be fed and fussed over. Most men have a pride (ironic word) in their families (well, maybe not as much today but these will be 'damaged' men) and would go to great lengths to protect them and the assets that support them. Men like to laze around dozing, at least now and then and yet often they are just thinking and scheming at the same time, usually towards the matter of security or yet more assets. Men have territory, not that women do not also.

Of course humans (or men) didn't observe and model themselves on lions (or the males) or on any other creatures. This is just how it is but it's at least worth noting that both our species (and all in-between) exhibit these tendencies. They are natural traits, common to the sexes, seemingly throughout, mammals at least. (Don't mention the spiders!)

Imagine a lion pride where the pride males are chivvied and bullied (by the lionesses) out of their slumbers in the sun and made to go and do the shopping all alone. Meanwhile the lionesses group together and engage in unproductive activities or even counter-productive ones and including frivolously spending the pride assets. Then fighting is banned, even of the play type among the younger males. Then intruders are allowed within the boundaries and the males must greet them courteously (through gritted teeth) and look for the good in them and pretend all is fine. The lionesses might do a bit of flirting and strutting whilst the visitors are present, but really it's all just a bit of fun and - well, girls need to be 'feisty' now and then - even if they're grandmothers! Soon, lion cubs will be reduced as fewer lionesses put up with the 'oppression' of motherhood and look instead to a career, such as diplomatic missions and 'bonding sessions' with neighbouring prides. The final straw arrives when the males are told that henceforth, roaring is banned because ....... it's a health and safety issue and ....... it frightens the children!

Finally, I have no idea whatsoever what 'Secret Santa' means or is about. None at all. I have sworn not to google the term to find out!
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Re: Feminism

Postby Yessica » 23 Dec 2013, 20:11

I won't be able to write a longer answer until after Christmas but I am going to meet with my family (including male relatives) and ask them how they think about that.
It's a topic that interests me. Wishing every one of you a merry Christmas.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Yessica » 03 Jan 2014, 08:59

Well...
I raised the topic with the men of my family and my husbands family... and I do not know if it is a good idea to tell you what they said... have to say both families are upper middle class and my husband's is a military family which of course means they work in an environment dominated by men. In my family they had the chance of spending some time in an environment like this because of the draft. Also one of my brothers currently attends an engineering school and in some of the classes he attends there are zero female students.

Anyway... I promised to write what they said. They gave one another meaningful looks and came up with examples of "We went to the bar and I / my military brother was so drunk that...", "I played my comrade for a sucker by ...", "My comrade had a cool cuzz word and it was ...", "The most ridiculous think happened to me and it was ...".

So the benefit of being surrounded by other males seems to be being able to play one another for a sucker, doing ridiculous things and swearing a lot.

While I agree that looking to the animal kingdom might help us understand our nature, I think that we are not some beast in the field which has no other choice than giving in the his or her instincts.

Such as diplomatic missions and 'bonding sessions' with neighbouring prides.


That is a good example.

Would you rather have the people of Europe constantly at each other's throats like it used to be in the past? Considering how tribal people live it might be natural, but it is not good.Think of all the human lives which would have been wiped out. Having no children is only one way to make your people decrease, the other and a much faster way is war.

An interesting example I heard of is rapa nui, the Easter Islands. The population is believed to be wiped out because of overexploitation of natural ressources and warfare... both of which might be natural but no good.

I don't even know if it is women who came up with pacifism but it makes a lot of sense.

Our cultures makes us build churches and hospitals, compose arias and so on. I think that this is preferavble to living in a lion pride and - should I be honest? - also preferable to tribal life which might be closer to nature.

I do however share your concern that we might not see that we are animals inside. As the mother of a toddler I think you cannot get the desire explore and to scuffle and tussle out of the boy. I notice this in both male and female toddlers but it seems to be much stronger in the males and that this is good and makes them special but should be directed another way such as science and sports not landtaking and violence.

Of course we must bear in mind that other cultures still might encourage violence and landtaking and think of it as an asset. We must'nt be blind for that. Total pacifism is only a good idea if the other happens to be as pacifist as you. I think that both - extreme warmongering and extreme pacifism - are weaknesses.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Gavin » 22 Jan 2014, 23:00

I have seen several BBC news programmes recently wherein almost all of the presenters and reporters have been women. The programmes have had a superficial character. This evening's programme mentioned Nick Clegg's wife Miriam González Durántez, who has been visiting schoolgirls and telling them they can be anything they want to be, and generally that being a career woman should be their aim.

So I would like to take the opportunity here say that I think a woman who makes here career her priority is in most cases, de facto, a failure as a woman. There are more important and more natural duties, such as being a present mother and an attentive, loved, wife.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Charlie » 24 Jan 2014, 07:14

Gavin wrote:This evening's programme mentioned Nick Clegg's wife Miriam González Durántez, who has been visiting schoolgirls and telling them they can be anything they want to be, and generally that being a career woman should be their aim.


There was some awful feature on her yesterday. Although I don't have the newspaper in question on me, the headline for the article was, if I'm not mistaken:

How to get ahead as a woman


Hang on, I thought feminism was supposed to be about equality...

Chortle.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Charlie » 16 Feb 2014, 18:38



God bless these men.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Gavin » 16 Feb 2014, 19:09

No sign of the police, I notice, to arrest these unhinged individuals. I suppose they would be done for sexual harassment if they so much as laid a finger on them, despite the criminal and sexually bullying behaviour of the women. I'd book them under so many laws.. assault, lewd behaviour, breach of peace.. bringing a bad name to womankind.

Yes, credit to the men. They just stand there, strong, when they could easily put every woman there out of action. I sometimes wonder if it will come to that - if men will be pushed too far.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Charlie » 16 Feb 2014, 19:59

Gavin wrote:Yes, credit to the men. They just stand there, strong, when they could easily put every woman there out of action. I sometimes wonder if it will come to that - if men will be pushed too far.


That's very true.

It was like watching an Argentinian version of Lord of the Flies. In any case, the mental age of those women and Piggy/Ralph must be roughly the same.

And despite the (incredible, in my view) equanimity of the men involved, I bet at least a few of them had the word degenerada(s) on the tips of their tongues.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Elliott » 17 Feb 2014, 16:38

That clip is incredible, Charlie. I know this isn't scientific, but I'm going to say that the behaviour of those women demonstrates why women should never be in charge of society. Given power over men, they seem to rapidly descend into malice and destructiveness.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Paul » 28 Mar 2014, 22:43

I'm not sure this should go in here. It could go in various places on this forum. But going off part of the title, I shall put it here.

I've been working on a quite old Mercedes truck recently (1981), doing some body repair including making some panels. I've also rebuilt the rear braking system and sorted out a few electrics.

The owners (a couple) are fairly well-heeled old hippie types. Not originals, more Gen X latter-day, though younger than me. The truck is part-converted and of course they wish to go travelling. Various points in Europe have been mentioned.

I don't know these people from of old. I've been recommended to them by a friend of a friend of a friend, etc.

As a result, I got requests on Facebook, for 'friends'. Out of politeness and commercial opportunity I have accepted (sigh). Earlier this evening I got this:

KLIT - a queer-feminist and activist community space in Hungary

An amazing queer social centre space and are trying to survive in a city with extreme fascist state oppression. Klit, which also hosts Rhythms of Resistance Budapest, will soon be evicted. They need help in any way possible, including by spreading around the call...


I've been asked to 'like it', I presume, or even to go there! I didn't spend too much time studying it.

Obviously I will have to keep quiet. It's like working in an office and proclaiming anti-PC views. All the same, it's good intelligence. I like to know what people are up to generally - so I can harden and re-affirm my prejudices!
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Re: Feminism

Postby Nathan » 28 Mar 2014, 23:22

Paul wrote:
KLIT - a queer-feminist and activist community space in Hungary

An amazing queer social centre space and are trying to survive in a city with extreme fascist state oppression. Klit, which also hosts Rhythms of Resistance Budapest, will soon be evicted. They need help in any way possible, including by spreading around the call...


Aww, bless! They've been caught squatting on somebody else's property and the extreme fascist state doesn't like it, I take it?
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