The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Thoughts on socialism and leftism generally

Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Elliott » 17 May 2013, 04:07

Several of the techniques I mentioned in the OP are demonstrated by this Youtube "discussion" in which I was involved last night:

a conservative wrote:And if you had lived in a large multicultural city - as I did for 45 years - then you'd want to reduce immigration. I've lived in these ghettos, created by the immigrants themselves because they want no part of western culture apart from its obvious benefits, and in which the remaining white people choose to leave because of the arrogance, intimidation, violence and crime that is common in such areas, many of which are now no-go areas for whites. I know because I've witnessed it for 45 years!

a liberal wrote:I live in a multicultural city, I love it. Immigrants are not a different species, they are humans that were born on a different land mass. So they don't listen to the Beatles or wear tracksuits..... AND ? What is all this immigration crime you mention? Do you have evidence? Or are you just repeating what you heard in the local non-multicultural pub? The world is changing, the UK will never reverse immigration, these people are here to stay. Thankfully the youth will always seek liberalism.

Elliott wrote:I actually went into a very non-multicultural pub, in Southall. I, and my friends, were the only three people there who were not Asian. The place fell silent when we walked in. We got glares and suspicious looks until we left, 15 minutes later. Multiculturalism doesn't work: the host becomes the meal.

another liberal wrote:That's an inference based on a tiny sample. Have you tried this in at least a hundred pubs in different parts of the country, balanced to reflect demographic factors? Thought not. You can't stereotype people based on one experience, or even a few.

Elliott wrote:You liberals always find a way to avoid acknowledging the elephant in the room, don't you? I might have known somebody would come up with the old chestnut about statistics vs personal experience... Let me guess, "the plural of anecdote is not data", right? Terrific.

Admittedly I was a bit aggressive with my reply there, and I do regret that now. But the point of this example is that the liberal was requesting evidence that he knew I couldn't possibly have. His stipulations were preposterous! At least a hundred different pubs? What absolute nonsense.

The facts are: I have been in many, many pubs in England and Scotland. This, the only one I can recall being in where everyone else was Asian, was the only one where everyone fell silent and glared at me and my friends until we left. Call me crazy but I tend to draw inferences from that experience. It seems to tally with the amount of race-driven crime going on, and my understanding of human nature. Lefties deny the former and utterly lack the latter.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Caleb » 17 May 2013, 04:49

Elliott: Here's what I think you did wrong: you engaged the liberal. I know that you didn't want him to get away with his nonsense. Not engaging him would have been to cede the field of battle, right? Wrong.

Firstly, it wouldn't have mattered if you had gone to 100 pubs. He simply would have introduced a new criterion, ad infinitum. Even if you had had a legion of statisticians to back you up, it still wouldn't have mattered. You're not allowed to be right. You're not allowed to win. This is the first rule of engaging a liberal.

It's stupid, and seems degrading, but you have to play the game his way, though not as you might initially think. It all operates on a purely irrational, emotional level. Basically, the worst thing you can ever do to these clowns is simply not engage them. They hate it. I don't mean cede the ground. I mean not engage them. There's a difference. When you're dealing with an idiot, it's idiotic to treat him as though he isn't. Never wrestle with a pig. You'll get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

What you should have done is engaged the conservative in a dialogue. There would have been points of agreement and disagreement, but it probably would have been civil and rational. The longer the discussion had gone on, the more it would have absolutely infuriated the liberal. Of course, there would have been name calling from the liberal and all the rest of it, but that's exactly what you would have wanted. Give these clowns enough rope to hang themselves. They will cede the ground themselves as a result, and those on the fence will always see that. There's somewhat of an unspoken rule in Western societies that the first person to lose his cool is the loser, regardless of the arguments at hand. It's often stupid, but that's how it is.

I'm writing all of this as someone who constantly gets into these situations himself, though I'm trying really hard to approach things with a different strategy now.

Everything is going to change. There isn't going to be an apocalypse, though there is going to be a rocky road. At some point, these liberals will be faced with one of two choices: perish in the carnage or come begging to others in the reconstruction. In order for you to be on the right side of history, you need to shore up your own position ready for the long game. They can "win" all they want, but they'll be dead, destitute or enslaved. Indeed, the more they "win", the faster they hasten their own demise. Just do your best to be well positioned for when the storm clouds clear.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Elliott » 17 May 2013, 05:08

That's good advice, Caleb. I know what you mean about it being difficult to keep one's cool - it is just so tempting to engage liberals! It always looks easy from the outset, but then they find a way to infuriate you.

But I will try to just engage conservatives in future and let liberals bray animalistically from the sidelines.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Grant » 17 May 2013, 08:28

Elliott, whenever I see "liberal" used as a pejorative I smile because in Australia our Liberal Party is the party of the staunchly conservative.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Elliott » 17 May 2013, 08:36

That must get confusing! Still it's just as confusing in America and Britain, where "liberal" means you're pretty much a totalitarian.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Gavin » 17 May 2013, 10:32

I notice Pat Condell has tried to keep the term "liberal" but I think it has become too toxic now. Might as well just go with "conservative".
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Elliott » 28 May 2013, 10:06

Elliott wrote:For people who claim to be free-thinkers, anti-establishment, radical, etc., lefties are amazingly reliant on authority to sanctify opinions before they are prepared to hold them or even respect them. In practice, it happens like this: you make a statement and the leftie demands that you back it up with an official, peer-reviewed study otherwise they will simply disregard it.


A stone-cold demonstration of that from a commenter today in the Guardian, regarding the ejection from the Hay Literary Festival of a man who has written an anti open-borders book:

Toby Miller wrote:Self-appointed public intellectuals opining on all and sundry without academic qualifications and peer-reviewed research don't, sorry, deserve a place at Hay as if by right.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Charlie » 28 May 2013, 10:29

If, as the saying goes, a fish rots from the head down, only the caudal fin is left at the Graun.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Nathan » 28 May 2013, 10:40

I've started commenting on the Guardian website on any articles - those that actually allow comments, that is - which seem hopelessly blinkered or hypocritical. I take extra care to appear fully reasonable and with mistake-free English, but I've still had five of my seven comments deleted.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Elliott » 12 Jun 2013, 16:16

A rather entertaining summary of the leftist mentality - much more concise and fun than my own attempt in the OP!

In praise of conservatism

Russell Taylor wrote:Leftists confuse their personal hang-ups for the problems of society as a whole, which explains their boundless sympathy for the underdog. It is, after all, a small jump from the leftist’s thwarted sense of entitlement to the mistreatment they perceive in others. Liberals plot against their own society through other people’s causes, then preen themselves as champions of the downtrodden.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Nathan » 14 Jun 2013, 22:08

This extract from a session at the Swedish parliament makes for an excellent example of how liberals debate, their level of arrogance and what they think they can get away with when speaking with somebody holding a contrary opinion.

A little background: a few weeks earlier, Stockholm and other cities across Sweden had gone through multiple successive nights of rioting in immigrant areas. The first speaker, Jimmie Åkesson, is the leader of the only party in Swedish politics to be critical of mass unskilled Third World immigration; the second, Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt, is not even of an overtly leftist party but is leader of the 'Moderate Party'.

Both points made by Åkesson are simply disregarded, because well, it's Åkesson and he keeps saying things we don't want to hear, therefore this entitles Reinfeldt to play the man and not the argument. Reinfeldt doesn't even look at Åkesson or look to be paying much attention while Åkesson is addressing him, and in the second part starts by addressing the speaker as opposed to Åkesson himself, as if Åkesson isn't worth the effort and should be ignored as a nuisance.

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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Gavin » 14 Jun 2013, 22:32

Indeed he played the man and not the argument. Very underhand and just what we have repeatedly seen in the treatment of Tommy Robinson by the BBC.

What shame we do not have a single plain speaking politician like Åkesson in the UK, let alone a Thatcher, Powell or Churchill.

It is not surprising the immigrants set fire to these cities because they do not regard them as their cities in their hearts, and I think, never will. They do not buy into the heritage after all, because it is not their heritage. Sometimes people speak of the "rape of Europe" sometimes in a literal sense and sometimes it does seem like that is what is happening before our eyes.

Yet they try to make illegal for people to object to it. They try to make it illegal for westerners to resist the destruction of their own culture and cities. That'll wash to a certain point, but surely not forever.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Elliott » 15 Jun 2013, 01:02

What a nasty video, and what an unpleasant arrogant man the Swedish PM seems. Would it be an example of "Jantelagen", especially when the PM says that Akesson's views are "uninteresting to us"?

PS. I did think it was actually beyond parody when the PM scolded Akesson for blaming immigrants' vandalism on immigrants.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Elliott » 26 Dec 2013, 21:25

I discovered this the day before Christmas, and have left it until the day after so as not to spoil anyone's Christmas with typical anti-left nit-picking :) .

Laurie Penny, in her wisdom, tweeted the following:
Masculinity always seems to be "in crisis". I'd argue that, like capitalism, masculinity isn't IN crisis, masculinity IS crisis.

We can go over the fact that Penny does not define what she means by "crisis", or provide examples of people claiming that masculinity is in crisis, or provide any evidence or examples that it is crisis, or make any attempt to justify her claim on a theoretical level, etc. But more interesting still is David Thompson's rebuttal:
So, gents. Is your masculinity in crisis? Or is it, like capitalism, the very definition of crisis? Those are your choices, apparently.

Reading that made me realise another "trick" that leftists use in debate: they redefine an issue such that it has only two possible interpretations, both of which are advantageous to the left.

In this example, Penny gives us two choices: either masculinity is always in crisis, or it actually is crisis. There's no middle ground, there's no alternative, and there's not even an attempt to justify the two options she's giving us. She just gives us those two options and tells us to choose which is the truth, and whichever one we choose, we will lose and she will win.

It's a method of blatantly skewing the debate such that it can only be won by the person doing the skewing.

Some other examples would be:
So, you want a limit on immigration. Is that for economic reasons (which I will find ways to disprove), or because you simply hate black people?


So, you don't want your child taught about homosexual sex in school. Is that because you're fragile and irrationally troubled by homosexuality, or is it because you think all gays are paedophiles trying to get to your child?


So, you don't like multiculturalism. Is that because you don't like other cultures, or because you are longing for the days of colonialism when white men could get rich by oppressing other cultures?


So, you think women should be at home, not in the workplace. Is that because you're intimidated by women, or do you just not like change?


The list could go on and on. The point is that, by presenting pre-baked options, the leftist can make himself appear open-minded and intellectually curious, whilst being closed-minded and intellectually incurious, and ensuring that the debate goes his way.
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Re: The Leftist mentality (as seen in debates)

Postby Gavin » 26 Dec 2013, 22:17

Excellent work in defining this devious tactic the left-wingers often use. I've been examining which fallacy it probably is and it seems to be a mixture of:


It is not logically invalid, it is incorrect simply because it excludes other possibilities (deliberately - unless the speaker is so stupid as to be genuinely unaware of those possibilities) in order to corner the opponent and make them look bad.

As for Penny's sexist "thought". Right.. masculinity hasn't brought the world much then. That hardly merits an answer! And she wouldn't have admitted to swooning if Kenny Everett rather than Ryan Gosling had saved her life that day in New York.

I'll not say anything further about Ms Penny's dating prospects, but I'm not really sure why she is so well known. If she is the best the Left can produce in terms of a popular intellectual, then it's really not very impressive. I mean I genuinely think she may be working against their cause. Hope they keep publishing her articles.
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