The Jewish people

Considerations of religious issues in general

Re: The Jewish people

Postby Gavin » 11 Apr 2016, 13:28

The term "The Jewish Question" was used by the Nazis as a way to refer to the question of what they might do with the Jews whom they intended to remove from German society. We know well how it was eventually answered. "The Jewish Question" as used today tends instead to refer obliquely to the question of whether or not Jews are in fact a pernicious influence in western societies, much as the Nazis in fact considered them to be in Germany in the 1930s.

There appears to be a distinct division on the "alt-Right" regarding this issue. All observers can see the problems being suffered in western societies - the decadence plus the culture-destroying mass immigration generally from the Third World. Some (e.g. Greg Johnson and numerous other white nationalists) believe that Jews are unduly represented and instrumental in this, whereas others (e.g. Jared Taylor and Paul Weston) tend not to push this hypothesis. "The Jewish Question" then has become a kind of euphemism and the reason this topic is referred to obliquely is doubtless because of its sensitivity, since so many Jews were murdered by Nazis during the Second World War.

Those who believe Jews are, in general, a pernicious influence in western societies believe also that Jews have become insulated from any criticism because of their ancestors' experience in the Holocaust (one of many pogroms, in fact, across history). They believe that many of the same characteristics that made Jews resented and disliked previously make them dislikable still today. They think Jews now simply "use" the Holocaust, sometimes exagerrating it, to their own benefit and to effectively outlaw any criticism of them. They tend not to refer to themselves as "antisemitic", because this has become something of a loaded term (like "Islamophobic"): bound up with it is almost the assumption that it is bigoted and invalid. Instead, those who believe Jews are undermining the West see themselves as simply speaking honestly about reality.

That's the theory. Now it might pay to summarise what characteristics Jew-skeptics, shall we say, believe they have observed of Jews. We should then consider how many Jews do indeed match up to those characteristics. Finally, does the theory even make any sense? If Jews are trying to undermine the West and for example invite in millions of Muslims, why would they want to do this?

The Jew-skeptics claim that all cultural, academic, banking and indeed governmental institutions in the West (perhaps particularly in America) have during the last few decades become dominated in their higher echelons by Jews. There does seem to be some evidence for this. Many are the times we hear a list of Jewish names reeled off from the business world and from all of these other zones of interest (for example Hollywood too, which of course wields great cultural influence). Granting that this is a valid observation, it remains to be proven that there is something self-serving and pernicious going on. Jews are generally intelligent and the fact that they are also industrious and successful should not necessarily be held against them. We should note that it is not only in these sectors that Jews typically succeed but also in art and science - and this is surely creditable.

White nationalists (who usually do not seem to include Jews as "whites") believe, however, that the art produced and promoted by Jews tends to have a degenerative influence, that Jews tend to be unduly attracted to the business of lending money (which they see as parasitic) and that they arrive "at the top" partly due to Jew-centred nepotism. In short, these white nationalists believe that many, if not all, Jews are essentially self-serving, strongly identify as Jews, and indeed have an aim of excluding white Europeans from their own societies and in some way actually undermining those societies. I have not read the seminal text "The Culture of Critique" by Kevin MacDonald, but I gather this would not be far away from the general claim.

Jews are held to be primarily responsible for the aggressive promotion of Cultural Marxism throughout the entire academic system since the 1950s. They are thought to be disproprotionately left-wing and they are thought to be generally in favour of mass Third World immigration into relatively civilised western societies. They are also held to be hypocritical, because at the same time they have their own largely monocultural country, Israel, in which they would hardly wish to become a minority. The Jew-skeptics believe that Jews typically are proud to ethnically identify as Jews, but were a white person (i.e. a European) to identify as white in the country of his ancestors he would be lambasted and called "racist" etc. by virutally everyone, including Jews.

The questions we would need to examine statistically in order to see whether the Jew-skeptics have valid concerns are those such as:

  • Is it true that Jews are overwhelmingly left-wing?
  • Is it true that Jews tend to be nepotistic?
  • Is it true that Jews in particular are responsible for promoting Third World immigration and degenerate art?

If these were found to be well-founded claims, then we would want to ask why this might be the case. What would be particular about Jews such that they do this more than other groups?

Some of the most antisemitic Jew-skeptics would say "It is in the Jew's nature - a creature cannot help what it is", etc. This doesn't seem much of an explanation. One issue that does bear some examination is the question of why Jews would ever want to argue for mass Third World immigration into the western societies where they themselves now prosper - especially since it is usually Muslims who they allegedly want to immigrate and Muslims are almost always extremely hostile to Jews. If the Jew-skeptics are right, whyever would Jews want to import their arch-enemy into the West?

Explanations are offered beyond the simplistic one above. Here are a couple:

The first is that Jews were so persecuted as a people that this has resulted in a "hair trigger" sensitivity to other groups also being identified as a threat. This has blinded western Jewish liberals to the fact Muslims are in fact very different from them, hate them, and actually are a threat.

The second is that Jews want to decrease European homogeneity because they still think Europeans are a threat to them. If they can import thousands of lower IQ, easily manipulated (in theory), Muslims and Africans into western society they will more easily be able to remain not only safe, but also at the top, in control of an essentially weakened people. This is "keeping the white man down". This latter point moves toward the further white nationalist claim that Jews actually wish to subvert western society and dominate Europeans and European-descended Americans.

I am writing this article because I agree with many of the observations made in the alt-Right, but the "Jewish Question" remains highly controversial and is an obvious (perhaps the only real) point of contention. I can see some evidence for the arguments of the Jew-skeptics, but do not fully buy their arguments. My purpose here is to at least provide a broad outline of the issues and claims, as I have understood them, so that we might move forward from here. As a matter of fact I am most interested in what Jews themselves make of all this, as I have some Jewish friends. Perhaps they also think that many of their people have been a pernicious influence, but not all have been? Anthony Daniels, we must remember, is technically Jewish since his mother was a Jew, yet something that probably works very strongly in his favour is that he barely ever mentions this and seems not to be preoccupied with it at all. He has integrated entirely into the West and is a credit to it.

Any contributions to this controversial thread must be calm and put in a civilised tone. We have Jewish contributors on this forum and, as I have mentioned, I am interested most of all in their views. Has this widespread concern about Jews come about merely due to thoughtless antisemitism and scapegoating, or is there some foundation for it? If so, how is this best neutralised, perhaps by Jews themselves? I consider Islam to be totally incompatible with Western society. I'm not sure Orthodox Judiasm is very compatible either, quite frankly, with its penis sucking/circumcision of babies, its self-segregation and methods of animal slaughter. But there is the Jewish ethnicity and there is the Jewish religion and many Jews seem to identify only with the former (even if they still insist others must convert to Judaism before marrying them).

We have an enemy in the ideology of Islam in our countries and this might well come to a head due to demographics soon. We wouldn't want to see the Jews caught up in yet another conflict in which they are targetted by Europeans, so it's worthing settling this question of whether Jews are generally working "with us" or "against us". At the same time, we might ironically note that many Europeans are undoubtedly working against us - and this is surely not always because they are "working for their Jewish masters" as Jew-skeptics would argue.
Gavin
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Re: The Jewish people

Postby Charlie » 15 Apr 2016, 17:10

I just thought I'd add a comment, which I saw underneath a Steve Sailer blogpost the other day.

If I'm not mistaken, the poster, Gabriel M, has both a British and Israeli passport, so I guess he's better placed than most to offer a rejoinder to the alt-right and their JQ "thing".

Here's the quote, which I haven't edited or tidied up:

Gabriel M wrote:I’ll take the time to respond to this post in detail because it details the main flaws in alternative-right thought.

1) American provincialism: America’s Middle East policy is insane; Jews are influential in the U.S. , therefore Jews are behind the U.S.’s insane policy. The problem is that European countries where Jews are far less influential have policies just as insane and, most importantly, there is no correlation between the degree of support for overthrowing Assad and support for Israel. For example, Sweden and Norway are the most consistently pro-Palestinian countries in Europe and both have been gung-ho for getting rid of Assad. The same goes for immigration. If you only know about America it perhaps seems plausible that the only reason Americans are willing to allow themselves to be colonised by third world derelicts is because the Jews – undoubtedly influential in America- are manipulating them into it. But then you look at European countries who are doing the same, or worse, and you find no correlation whatsoever between pro-immigration policies and Jewish power/support for Israel. This leads us to.

2) The refusal to believe your enemies have sincere beliefs: Again, you postulate that no-one could possibly want to overthrow Assad unless they were in thrawl to the Israeli lobby. Well, let me explain. Imagine you believed that human evolution stopped 50,000 years ago and there are no significant differences between human populations with regard to cognition and behavioral traits. Imagine, further that you believed that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with Islamic culture. Sure, it’s got a chequered past and it’s fair share of bad apples, but so does everyone. Now you – and I – may find both views absurd, but they are held by, conservatively, 95% of educated people. There may once have been a large amount of respectable people who knew perfectly well that race is real, but chose to keep quiet about it, but they retired decades ago.
Now, let’s imagine you hold these beliefs and you look at the Middle East. What do you see? Country after country being run by corrupt dictators with living standards, liberty, etc. etc. far below those of the West. Of course there is nothing wrong with the people in these countries; there is even nothing all that wrong with their culture. The obvious conclusion is that if you could just get rid of these dictators who are inexplicably running all these countries, everything would be awesome. How do I know people believe this? Because I once believed it myself. What cured me was a combination of the manifest failure of the Iraq war, plus the discovery of HBD. Whilst I was at university, I knew, literally, hundreds of people who believed in liberal creationism. The ones who opposed nation-building in the Middle East only did so because they believe that Whitey has some inherently evil reverse Midas Touch that means they can never do any good in the world. They all believed that if Saddam/Assad/Gaddafi could be brought down by their own people without western help then everything would be dandy. Ironically, their batty beliefs cancelled each other out and resulted in a relatively saner policy. Some of those people are now working in think-tanks pushing for interventionism and/or mass immigration. Since I know that they sincerely believed in these daft ideas before they got these jobs, the most reasonable assumption is that they still sincerely believe in these daft ideas, not that know their ideas are false, but serve as a proxy for Israeli interests (especially, since this is Britain we are talking about, most of them don’t even like Israel.)

3. The refusal to recognise other people’s scale of priorities: Apparently the Israel lobby is running American foreign policy. Well, it’s quite easy to test whether this is true. There is a broad cross-party consensus in Israel that has been espoused by every government since 1967 that Jerusalem is irrevocably united and is the capital of Israel. And yet not a single U.S. President has recognized united Jerusalem as Israel’s capital because, quite simply, the Saudis won’t have it. I’m telling you right now as an ethnocentric Jew who moved to Israel to be around other ethnocentric Jews if I could run the U.S. for a day that’s the first thing I’d do. Maybe I’d have some grand scheme for re-organising the Middle East, maybe not, but I’d do the capital thing before anything else. Then I’d do Iran. Then I’d recognise the annexation of the Golan Heights. Then maybe I’d do some stuff that doesn’t command cross-party support in Israel, like telling the Palestinians to take a hike. Only after all that stuff, would I move on to whatever my plans are for Syria.

4) The insistence of searching for the most implausibly malevolent interpretations of your enemy’s actions Apparently Israel wants “to destroy” Syria. Why they would want to do so is not really clear, so we fall back on weird stuff like “they’ve run out of better targets” (uhh, hello, Iran) or they want to “see the last functioning state in the Levant broken” (uhh, hello, Jordan). This is especially odd given that there is perfectly plausible explanation for Israeli actions with regard to the Syrian Civil War: Israel’s northern border is controlled by Hizb’Allah; Hizb’Allah is fighting in Syria on behalf of Assad; Israeli would like to see as many Hizb’Allah fighters die as possible.

5) The desire to explain everything in terms of malevolence Just as the Iraq war proves that no amount of interventionism is ever enough for interventionists; the Syria war proves that no amount of non-intervention is ever enough for non-interventionists. The Assad regime was based demographically on a shrinking minority of the population; it was loathed with ever increasing ferocity by the growing majority. Like all governments, it faces the unsolvable problem that you can only buy support by pissing someone else off and so, because inefficiency is baked into the cake, you end up ever more unpopular over time, unless some economic windfall saves your bacon. (This parenthetically is the only valid argument for democracy: since regime change is inevitable, it is good to have a mechanism whereby it can occur with bloodshed and wild swings of policy). Now, it’s possible that Syrian Ba’athism had solved the unsolvable and become the only permanent regime in human history, until America came along and ruined it, but it’s more reasonable to suppose that sooner or later, the Assad family’s time was up and the result would be a massive spike in ethnic violence until the country run out of low IQ 17-25 year old with nothing to lose.



If I recall correctly, there was no decent response from any other commenter to that.

Incidentally, I read Kevin MacDonald's Culture of Critique recently, just to make up my own mind about it. And in all honesty, I think that John Derbyshire's review of the book, written back in 2003, was spot on.

In addition, I think it's worth noting that those on the alt-right who are most obsessed with the JQ (Greg Johnson being a prime example) are the ones who fully believe in the validity of MacDonald's studies and writings.
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Re: The Jewish people

Postby Jonathan » 19 Apr 2016, 20:12

My general impression (at a certain distance, it must be remembered) is that the elites of the western european countries are universally left-wing, and are adopting policies which will result in the ruin of their nations.

The Jews in these nations are usually more educated than average, and are therefore overrepresented to a certain extent in the political elites, just as they are overrepresented, for example, in the scientific community.

Thus there are considerable numbers of Jews who are actively working towards the destruction of their home countries. They are not doing this because they are Jewish. They are doing this because they are leftists. They are not doing this because of a malicious conspiracy. They are doing this because they think there are doing good.

Israel has no lack of these left-wing Jews. When they held political power through most of the 90's, they brought upon Israel the Oslo accords (1993) and the hasty withdrawal from Lebanon (2000), which lie at the root of pretty much every war since then. They genuinely thought they were bringing peace in our time. They convinced many people of this. They were voted into power by large masses of dream-struck followers. They were described in rosy terms at the time; the terms I am using are much more recent.

The difference is that in Israel the damage was limited (a few thousand trained Arab fighters were allowed in), the disaster struck quickly (7 years after the policy that instigated it) and that the Israeli body politic swung over to the right relatively quickly. The price (so far) is about two thousand dead over twenty years, and half a dozen minor wars. That's not counting the bus bomb yesterday.

Another difference is that there was no suspicion of a Jewish conspiracy, since all the other politicians were also Jewish (barring a dozen or so Arabs).

In Israel, the current European policy is generally perceived as a form of madness. Every few weeks the newspapers carry a long article describing how Jews are fleeing from this or that country. This week it was Holland, a few weeks ago it was Belgium. Sometimes there is a suggestion that antisemitism might lie at the root of it - the Europeans are bringing in Muslims to make life unbearable for the Jews. This is a bad explanation, of course, but it is brought up because no logical explanation suggests itself. So, in Israel policy X looks like antisemitism, and in Europe it looks like a Jewish Conspiracy. That's irony for you.

My perception is that the Jews in Europe are much in the same position as the Gentiles. The average German, I suspect, watches in horror as his politicians ruin his country, and never sees this horror expressed in the press. The average Jew finds himself hiding all symbols of his faith; he needs guards outside his synagogue; he drives his children to school because he is afraid to let them walk. He knows perfectly well that the danger comes from Muslims. But when he watches television, he sees Jewish members of the elite espousing more immigration. He watches this in horror. What can he do? Nothing much, like his Gentile neighbor - except leave for Israel. The article on Holland this week interviewed a Rabbi who is planning to leave, and another Jew who said that half the Jews his age have already gone.

Why is there a Jewish Question, and not a left-handed-purple-tie-wearer Question? I suspect that many Jews in the leftist elite like to make a big fuss out of their Jewishness. This plays into the hands of many of the alt-right who like to make a big fuss about who is Jewish and who isn't. There is also a tendency in any human mind to assign blame to an outside group. There is also a tendency to view people in a group as interchangeable. Together, this begets the easy explanation - the Jews are working together against us. This, I think, is false. The Jews in the leftist elite are working together not because they share a goal as Jews, but because they share ideas as leftists. They are working with Gentile leftists as much as with each other. It is the leftist ideas which are dangerous, not the Jewish identity.

I saw a video a few months ago which was a compilation of clips about immigrants, sprinkled with interviews with desperate Europeans. At the end they had a two-minute monologue of a typical leftist-elite politician praising the immigration policy, and mentioning she was Jewish every four or five words. It made me want to pluck my eyeballs out. But we've got politicians here with the same idiotic ideas, and the same smug complacency. The prime example is called Yossi Beilin, one of the architects of the Oslo accords. He's been in the opposition for fifteen years and hardly anyone takes him seriously anymore. We've got leftist newspapers and journalists who are just as bad as anything in England. Vote the left out of office, and they become more ludicrous than dangerous. I know, that's impossible because the press is all left-wing. Well, so was ours in 2001, and Sharon was still voted in. He'd been demonized for 20 years by the press, but he still became Prime Minister. I can't understand why it's not happening in England. In Israel, contentious issues routinely brought hundreds of thousands into the streets. Tommy Robinson can barely marshal a few hundred. Pegida gets 30K on its best day in its strongest city. The average Jew in the street sees this, and thinks "It's only going to get worse". He's learned about the '30s. He gets out before it's too late.

I read a few articles on unz.com about half a year ago, but was put off by the tone of the articles and the comments - though they were not nearly as bad as on takimag, if I recall correctly. I don't think I really have the measure of unz, or of its importance on the alt-right scene - or whether my original impression is still valid, assuming it was ever correct.

Oh well, off to read that review by Derbyshire. And that Gabriel M fellow seems to me right on the mark.
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Re: The Jewish people

Postby Gavin » 03 May 2016, 08:43

Jonathan - many thanks for replying on this sensitive topic, and also replying calmly - as you typically do, but as many left-wing Jews doubtless would not! Please excuse the delay in my reply. I've been moving house and now live in Shropshire, not far from where I believe Dalrymple has a house (that being in the town of Bridgnorth).

I find your explanation convincing. I leave open a small margin for doubt, but it is very small. I leave that margin open on most matters, frankly.

I do, however, continue to take a dim view of certain aspects of Orthodox Judaism and I wonder how Jews in general would react if European countries decided to outlaw some of the practices I mentioned. If Jews want to live in the West, the more integrated they are into western society and the less they self-segregate, the better it is, in my view - as goes for any other people for that matter.
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Re: The Jewish people

Postby Gavin » 20 May 2016, 08:58

We had a discussion about circumcision some time ago on this forum. This video here is pertinent to this discussion though it makes for very uncomfortable listening.

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