Islam in the UK

Islam is, for now, included under this topic

Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 18 Sep 2012, 14:38

Here's another insightful comment by user tayles. This is to be found among many others under a recent article which, amazingly, is actually - at least slightly - critical of the West's supplication before Islam.

tayles wrote:The Left are not equipped morally or intellectually to deal with the threat of foreign death cults. They instinctively have sympathy for them, because they are underdogs. And since Leftists despise their own culture and traditions, they feel a natural affinity for anyone who shares their hatred. But these same fundamentalist loons hold beliefs that leftists are opposed to, including misogyny, homophobia and censorship. Inevitably, they end up in a contradictory mess.

The Left usually opts to ignore these contradictions altogether, or say that ‘the devil made them do it’. What they can’t bring themselves to do is accept that their own culture is actually superior to that of their enemies. While they are comfortable sneering at their own countrymen and revelling in the sense of superiority this provides, they will never denounce a poorer, weaker nation, even if its practices are violently opposed to their own liberal sensibilities.

They naively believe that if they show sufficient contrition and abasement before their enemies, they will win them over. They believe their own propaganda, which says that other people’s hostility is the result of being made to feel small or stupid by swaggering bullies. What they won’t accept is that our enemies wish to destroy us irrespective of how cravenly we humiliate ourselves before them.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Elliott » 28 Sep 2012, 01:26

This could go into the threads on Multiculturalism or Political correctness but I think it is perhaps most relevant to this one.

Yesterday, two Telegraph blog articles had commenting disabled:

We're right to worry about Megan Stammers – but why was the Rochdale grooming allowed to happen?

Google, The Innocence of Muslims, and the politics of tech

The Telegraph is Britain's most popular broadsheet newspaper. It is also Britain's most conservative broadsheet newspaper. As such, the people who post comments on its site are mostly right-wing. For them, no issue is more incendiary than immigration and, within that, no group more infuriating than Muslims.

I can understand that, from the Telegraph editors' perspective, it is a risk to let their readers comment on articles about Islam. They don't want their newspaper to get into legal trouble. However, this disallowing of comments demonstrates something I mentioned in the Eurabia thread: that native Europeans are not allowed to complain about their colonisation by Islam.

Of course you could say "they are allowed, they just have to be polite and civil about it". But how can you say politely that you don't trust a large group of people, that they have not contributed positively to your country, that you wish they had never been allowed in, that you fear the worst for your country's future, and that you'd like this group of people deported? There are no polite ways to say that; there are only ways to skirt around it pathetically and never say what you actually mean. In our politically correct age, if something cannot be said nicely, we assume that it shouldn't be said at all. One example of this cowardice is the very subject that we're not allowed to comment on: social workers and police not acting on child rape allegations. You could even add a third layer of cover-up: comments in other threads which complain that we are not allowed to comment on this are themselves deleted!

Another blog post yesterday, which did not have comments disabled, served as the venue for the Telegraph's readers to vent spleen on the other two articles.

One of the best points made was a comparison of the media's treatment of three news stories yesterday:

  • STORY: a smitten 15 year-old school girl has eloped with her teacher
    CRIME: paedophilia
    PERPETRATOR: white male
    MEDIA TREATMENT: national scandal, all over the newspapers and TV news programmes
    PUBLIC: allowed to comment
  • STORY: a footballer has been fined £220,000 for using racist language on the pitch
    CRIME: racism
    PERPETRATOR: white male
    MEDIA TREATMENT: national scandal, all over the newspapers and TV news programmes
    PUBLIC: allowed to comment
  • STORY: an official report concludes that "social services and police 'missed opportunities' to stop the sexual abuse of young girls in Rochdale"
    CRIME: paedophilia, racism, gang rape, police cover-up, social services collusion
    PERPETRATOR: Muslim men, and public sector workers
    MEDIA TREATMENT: story kept away from the front pages. No national scandal
    PUBLIC: not allowed to comment

Even on Rochdale's own news website, you have to search to find the story.

The brew continues boiling.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Elliott » 14 Oct 2012, 18:07

Interesting developments here.

A protest by 10,000 Muslims outside the offices of Google in London today is just the first in an orchestrated attempt to force the company to remove an anti-Islamic film from website YouTube in Britain.

Thousands had travelled from as far afield as Glasgow to take part in the demonstration, ahead of a planned million-strong march in Hyde Park in coming weeks.


The most disconcerting thing is a quote from a Youtube spokesman:
We work hard to create a community everyone can enjoy and which also enables people to express different opinions. This can be a challenge because what's OK in one country can be offensive elsewhere.

The worrying implication there is that, while this video is OK in America, it's not OK in Britain where it gets 10,000-strong protests from Muslims.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Michael » 15 Oct 2012, 13:13

A protest by 10,000 Muslims


What groups are coordinating these protests? It would be pretty difficult to get 10,000 ordinary Canadians to show up for something without months or weeks of advance notice. Whatever groups are coordinating these responses seem to have access to a large pool of readily available people to chant and wave signs.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Caleb » 16 Oct 2012, 00:51

They'd be doing it through mosques. Religious communities generally, not just Muslims specifically, are pretty good at organising numbers when necessary because they're much tighter than the general (nominally atheistic) population and meet much more frequently also.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Jonathan » 16 Oct 2012, 07:16

Also, the bigger the mosque, the greater the protest, and the more power in the hands of its Imam.

And the bigger the protest, the greater the chances of it turning to violence.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 16 Oct 2012, 07:40

Yes, mosques funded by the Saudis and the UK government along with social networking appropriated from the West for their anti-Western aims.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 20 Oct 2012, 08:29

Here's a new but predictable development. It has been smuggled in with minimal publicity, but it's leaked out:

James Delingpole reports that non-Muslim children in British schools are now being taught that they must say "peace be upon him" whenever they mention Mohammed (whom they must also call "the prophet" Mohammed).

Worth a read.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Elliott » 22 Oct 2012, 15:13

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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Andreas » 22 Oct 2012, 16:17

The James Delingpole article and the recent posts on the “Multiculturalism” thread are very disturbing. I don’t live in Britain (my last visit was in 2005) and so I should not and cannot judge a situation there, but it seems dreadful. What is going on? Have people taken leave of their senses? Almost every day something reminds me to be grateful that I live in an Anglosphere nation. Our system is far from perfect, of course; there is crime, corruption, stupidity, etc., but on most days of the year it is so obviously preferable to other governments in the world that people have to suffer under. I’m grateful to Britain because I realize that so much of our legal system, our ideas of justice and equality, fairness, freedom of speech, political freedoms, the right to privacy and private property, and many other boons, are ours because of our history of having once been a British colony. How can British people take part in slow-motion cultural suicide, or would self-erasure be a better word?

In fact I shouldn’t be surprised, because there are signs of the same process here, in left-wing academia.

In July, the University of California issued a report and recommendations on “Muslim and Arab Student Campus Climate at the University of California.”

http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/n ... m-arab.pdf

The report emphasizes that the university wants to provide an “inclusive campus climate” for Muslim and Arab students. Note that these students make up only about 1.5 percent of the undergraduate population. Not surprisingly, the report recommends diversity requirements, recruitment of more Arab and Muslim faculty members, and mandatory sensitivity training. It also suggests accommodating Islamic dietary provisions and providing living accommodations that are sensitive to Islamic “modesty practices”; i.e., provide female-only living space.

It remains to be seen whether the university – a state university, supported by taxpayers’ money – will acquiesce to these requests.

I’m at a loss to understand the administrators who think this is a good idea. They are all left/liberal and pro-feminist, and all no doubt agree that the end of racial segregation in American schools in the 1960s was a good thing. These same people now seem to think it’s good to endorse Islamic gender segregation in 2012.

Islamic gender segregation sends a strong message that men and women are not equal and is a direct challenge to our laws.

I don’t doubt that these bureaucrats are unsophisticated and ill-informed people, but I still wonder what’s going through their heads. There must be a great spiritual and psychological emptiness inside them. They need to find a religion and have found it in multiculturalism, but are too naïve to see how dangerous it is.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Elliott » 23 Oct 2012, 02:19

Andreas,

You pose a fascinating question and I will try to address it, insofar as I am able.

The question is: why are Western liberal academics so cowed by Islam?

I did touch on this question in this article (see Fascination with the Other), but it bears closer examination.

Only today, I was insulted by somebody (who is undoubtedly very intelligent) on the basis that I had said negative things about Islam. But all the things I said were, to the best of my knowledge, true! This person is not a professional academic, but he is certainly a professional liberal, and I take it as symptomatic of current Western intellectual life that he simply rejected the truth about Islam and shot the messenger who brought it.

There is a segment of our society which simply does not want to know that Islam is bad. They will find ways of achieving that, some quite clever. For example, when I pointed out how much more aggressive than Christianity Islam has been, my opponent said the following: with wars involving Christians, we tend to look at the non-religious reasons for the war, but with wars involving Muslims, we tend to simply blame Islam. That's a reasonable point, until one realises that Islam specifically commands its followers to propagate the religion, including by way of violence, deception and war. Look at how the Crusades are now routinely condemned as Christian aggression; look a little deeper and in fact they were responses to Islamic aggression (cutting off access to Jerusalem for the infidel).

Most people can see Islam for what it is - a backward, barbaric and stultifying creed - but it is always possible to twist even something as obvious as that into "bigotry". Indeed, liberals have us in an uncomfortable position regarding Islam, because the only truthful things one can say about it are unpleasant; therefore, by speaking the truth about it, we "reveal" ourselves as negative, hateful people. The fact that Islam should be hated is overlooked in favour of denouncing the person who rightly hates it. You cannot say anything, you cannot defend yourself from it, without condemning yourself.

This uncomfortable position only obtains because some people among us (liberals) refuse to see that we are right to hate Islam. It's like a group of people who excoriate their fellows for hating an invading army by suggesting that it is always, everywhere, wrong to hate something - cheerfully ignoring that the city is, indeed, being invaded and the invaders are, indeed, deserving of hatred.

Of course, it would seem ideal to simply ask the liberals why they are so enamoured by Islam, but I don't think their answers would be honest. I think these are people who are incapable of honesty; they don't really know themselves.

What they do know is that they are operating inside a culture (Western) which is dismantling itself, and that they can gain recognition and wealth by helping with that dismantling.

At the same time, they are aware of a rival culture (Islam) which is emboldening, expanding and exporting itself. Therefore Islam provides an end goal that the process of Western dismantlement can/should lead to. But furthermore, by being so bold and forceful, Islam also galvanises the process of Western dismantlement in the meantime. The academic thinks "why is this Islamic beast so aggressive?" and concludes, in her child-like naivety, that it must be because it carries a message more strong and true than the Western culture ever did. They see it as a kind of inevitability: the West is dying because it was always actually bad, and Islam is rising because it was always actually good. They don't pretend to fully (or even slightly) understand Islam; that isn't important. All that is important is that Islam is aggressive, brutal and absolutist.

I see academics rather like children, and the female ones as girls who are always trying to please/destroy Daddy. I think that sums up the work they are doing, but it also spells out the natural end result of their work: one father (the West) will be replaced by a new one (Islam), which will be far more domineering, strict and unforgiving than the old one. They claim to be shaking off the shackles of patriarchy, yet they daily prepare for a patriarchy that will be 100 times as patriarchal!

This explains the silence of feminists with regard to Islam's treatment of women. At some deep level, they crave the utter subordination that male-dominated Islam would mean for them. You might call it 50 Shades of Quran, if that isn't too glib.

Academics desire perfect order. This is an adult reflection of the security they believe father provided when they were children. If the present culture does not provide perfect order, they will set about, like a swarm of aggrieved maggots, destroying it, justifying the work with the belief that the present culture will be replaced by one that will provide fatherly order, and also with the belief that, regardless of what replaces it, the present culture deserves to be destroyed anyway because it failed to be the absolute father they want.

You cannot fundamentally replace one social order with another, without first disintegrating the original. That is exactly what academics have been doing for 50 years. Whether it was under the auspices of Marxism, feminism, multiculturalism or even New Atheism, the effect was to leave the subject culture (Western) weakened in some fundamental way. Is it really a coincidence that, with that work very much underway, academic departments are now opening Islamic sub-departments, looking for ways to attract more Muslim students and trying to appease Islamic campaign groups? Is this really what you would do, with evidence of Islamic brutality appearing on a daily basis, if you were not somehow mesmerised by that brutality?

I think it is precisely Islam's brutal nature which is attractive to academics. They claim to love the intellectual realm. They claim that practical, real life is of little interest to them because they live in thought. They claim to thrive on intellectual freedom. They claim that material concerns are of little interest, except for the odd champagne orgy. They claim that boundaries are artificial. They claim that conventions and traditions are mere social constructs and can be done away with. They claim that questions, questions, questions are what really matter in life. But really, academics are just like the rest of us: they need a framework in which to live, assumptions about what life will be like tomorrow, and irritatingly (yet comfortingly) hard rules about what one can and cannot do. Despite their undoubted intellectual abilities, they are still insecure animals in need of boundaries. And I suspect that the more an academic dissolves boundaries, the more she craves new ones. Islam will solve that problem, and then some.

The above may be a load of drivel.

However, for the sake of this post let's assume that it is true. In that case, it will be true of an archetype liberal academic, and even the most extreme liberal academic in real life will fall short of the archetype. However, I believe it is what most of them, to differing degrees, represent. Many of them would read this post and recognise a tiny piece of it in themselves and their colleagues, and perhaps realise they should reverse back to sanity. Others, more extreme, would read it and immediately recoil at the threat of being understood, at the threat of seeing themselves, for the work they do every day would be suddenly explained in an uncomfortably clear manner and they would be naked to themselves - and that is the last thing a resentment-monger wants.

My point is that I know the description is almost a caricature. But when I see university department staffs like this one, I wonder if the caricature is so far from reality.

Another way to look at the whole thing is this...

While the religious impulse might not be universal, the transcendent impulse is. This seems pretty obvious to me. Most people desire a project that gives them a purpose beyond the everyday. However, with the neutering of Christianity, the West lost its transcendent purpose. We substitute things like social justice, technology, Marxism, freedom, multiculturalism, secularism, fascism and so on, but none of these is as comforting as a religion. This leaves us feeling in some way barren.

Academics, living in the realm of ideas, are the ones who feel this barrenness most keenly. They have infinite leeway to wander away from home, but then they don't really know where "home" is, so the wandering is not leisurely, but desperate.

It is only natural, then, that Islam should beguile them. Even if they do not believe in it themselves (they would probably consider themselves above superstition) they find its absolutism comforting. In fact, since they live every day disintegrating boundaries, they find its absolute assertion of boundaries exotic and fascinating: this is a daddy who smacks you when you disobey. (And when was the last time an academic approved of that?)

In more simple language, Islam fills the god-shaped hole, even for those who don't believe in God.

In more brutal language, what liberal academics really crave is for someone to shut them up, burn their books, close down their departments and put them all in burkas. It would end the mystery they claim to love so much but are, in fact, tormented by, because they have no transcendent framework in which to play around with the mystery.

It is important to put all this in perspective. I don't think that Islam is going to take over the West. It will probably take over Europe, or at least large parts of Europe, but I think the New World will be ultimately safe from it, because there simply aren't enough Muslims to populate America and Canada. What they can do (Muslims but more so West-hating academics) is subjugate academia so that America et al will shy away from military intervention to save the Old World.

As for the fate of liberal academics... within the Islamified parts of the Old World, liberal academics will either flee or get beheaded. Within the non-Islamified parts of the Old World, they will be executed for their misdeeds. Within the New World, I imagine they will go gracefully into retirement and die smug in the assurance that Islam "never really got a chance".
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Rachel » 23 Oct 2012, 05:06

Elliott wrote:But when I see university department staffs like this one, I wonder if the caricature is so far from reality.



I loved that link. It was like a parody. Gave me a good giggle.
The women in the feminist studies type department look like that here too. :)

My interpretation as to why academics, high people and some of the public don't want to face up about Islam is because:

a) Deep down it scares them and they don't want to believe the worst. It's hard to face the truth.

b) They have never lived in an extreme Islamic country, or lived in a Muslim underclass ghetto, or like me, been to a school with Muslims calling you names because of your background. In short they have never suffered. It's like the champagne socialist who supported Communism but never experienced the misery of living under it.

c) It's fashionable and they want to look compassionate.

d) Like you said Elliott, embracing Islam is a way of rebelling (or so they think.)


a) and most of all b) are the biggest reasons feminists, liberal academics and some of the public don't see the truth.

EDIT: Now that I read your essay again Elliott I see I missed some points you made. I need to think about this.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Rachel » 23 Oct 2012, 06:28

I want to comment about what you said about the future:

Elliott wrote:...It is important to put all this in perspective. I don't think that Islam is going to take over the West. It will probably take over Europe, or at least large parts of Europe, but I think the New World will be ultimately safe from it, because there simply aren't enough Muslims to populate America and Canada. What they can do (Muslims but more so West-hating academics) is subjugate academia so that America et al will shy away from military intervention to save the Old World.

As for the fate of liberal academics... within the Islamified parts of the Old World, liberal academics will either flee or get beheaded. Within the non-Islamified parts of the Old World, they will be executed for their misdeeds. Within the New World, I imagine they will go gracefully into retirement and die smug in the assurance that Islam "never really got a chance".



I liked reading a lot of what you wrote.

I don't know if Islam will take over Europe. I hope it doesn't.

The only bit that I disagree with is the "fate of liberal academics". I don't think it will be that bad. In the coming world recession there will be less people paying to study things like "Feminism Studies" or "Conciousness" and these things will fall out of fashion.
Even the more serious humanities subjects like Sociology will find it difficult to find students.
"Feminism Studies" will be like the way 70's "Swingers parties" before AIDS or old Communist student protests are seen now. People will look back at todays liberal academics in the same way.

Re: Academic pandering to Islam might also become less fashionable but, again I don't know about that one.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Andreas » 23 Oct 2012, 22:46

These last posts make very interesting reading. Some left/liberal Western academics are cowed by Islam, but others are strangely attracted by it. The former, as a psychological defense mechanism, are probably suppressing their knowledge of how dangerous Islam now is.

Some of the attraction, as you suggest, might be a suppressed wish for a strong parent figure to come and impose some kind of structure and boundaries, for people who spend so much energy on being “transgressive” (something Dalrymple has criticized very eloquently). Michel Foucault was apparently an admirer of Ayatollah Khomeini.

The critical and strange point is that these people have to look to an alien culture to find missing meaning or structure. Christianity or Western humanism are oppressive and patriarchal, etc., but somehow Islam is not judged using the same criteria.

By the same token, in the left/liberal West, men are not supposed to be aggressive, violent or macho, but few feminists in the West (other than Ayaan Hirsi Ali) seem to be criticizing Muslim males who behave this way.

Obviously the Western liberals in this case have an identity problem. It’s not unusual at 18-20 years of age to question one’s culture, to study other religions, or to sport unconventional dress or hairstyles, but the liberals in question are adults who should have developed a healthy identity by now.

There is something deeply perverse about these people bending over backwards to accommodate Islam and abasing themselves before it. It reminds me of the story by Albert Camus, “The Renegade,” about a Catholic priest who goes to try to convert an isolated North African town, but who is brutalized and ends up worshiping a hideous idol in their temple.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 06 Nov 2012, 11:45

This is an interesting development, also reported on Gates of Vienna: Reverend Dr Alan Clifford of Norfolk Reformed Church is in trouble with his local council, having had the gall to criticise Islam. He points out that the Qur'an itself is full of hate speech, but that doesn't matter to the council.
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