Islam in the UK

Islam is, for now, included under this topic

Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Charlie » 01 Feb 2013, 16:11

First, in reference to Jane Kelly's article, I can see where she's coming from. I lived in Acton for a fair few years, and although I didn't move out for the same reasons as Ms Kelly, I'm sorry that it has come to this for her - the borough she describes sounds like a very alienating one. My immediate response after reading it was rhetorical: how on earth do we untangle this mess? I also noted in Nathan's post further down the page he quoted the rather naive "janeinalberta" from the comments section of The Grauniad. She mentioned the name of the Canadian journalist and author Doug Saunders.

I don't know how the following article will be received here, but in the spirit of the thread on checking our opinions, and partly out of playing devil's advocate, I would like to ask what people here make of this article by Mr Saunders:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/doug-saunders-the-unfounded-fear-of-muslim-immigration/article4498250/?page=all

Personally, although I can't agree with everything he says, I do feel that he has a few valid points - what do you think of it?

Currently, there aren't many more polarising topics out there than Islam, are there? I don't know where to begin with it all really, or indeed, how it will end. Many on the left seem to think that everything is fine, whilst there are those on the right who tend to think that Muslims are outbreeding white Europeans, who will be the minority in 2 to 3 generations. Politically, although I would say that on the whole I'm a centre-right conservative, despite Islam's many evident problems, I don't really subscribe to the "Eurabia" view, but I certainly don't believe the "everything is fine" camp either. I do fear what all this polarising will do to us though, and here, by saying 'us', I'm speaking mainly about my country, the UK. It's hard to escape the notion that the UK is rather lost and rudderless.

At this point I would like to mention the journalist and author Nick Cohen (incidentally, I know that Dalrymple once critiqued one of Cohen's books). I find him interesting because he still sees himself as a man of the left, but a lot of lefties think that he's part of the right! I don't know how familiar people are here with his work, but I think that many of the points that he made in his books "What's Left" and "You Can't Read This Book" are still very valid. In the latter, which is a book about different forms of censorship, he rightfully points out that no one in the western mainstream media would ever dare to make fun of Islam, or say, mock the prophet - we have very firm evidence of what can happen to those that have, which in turn has lead to a kind of censorship. Although Cohen can sometimes sound like one of those rather shrill Atheist types, he's very right in saying that we've made things worse in our attempts to appease, coddle and apologise for some of the worst elements of Islam, and for that he mostly blames the left.

Anyway, your thoughts would be welcome on an article that certainly goes against the grain of what most people on this forum think.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 01 Feb 2013, 22:08

Thanks for posting this. I think it is indeed good to see contrary points of view, to keep us on our toes and keep us subjecting our own views to examination. The journalist here though seems to me to be something of a "useful idiot" - I mean that in its political sense, I'm not calling him an idiot gratuitously.

You mentioned Nick Cohen and there do seem to be people on the Left who have problems with the Left now. I wouldn't be surprised if Pat Condell still sees himself as a man of the Left. They must certainly feel very betrayed. I personally have never been of the Left at all and have only relatively recently accepted that, in that case, I suppose I'm of the right instead. If we're going to use broad labels, that's fine with me.

Okay, to the article. The first half seemed to me to be a good description of what is going on. I thought it was telling, however, when the writer kept on saying that the problem Muslims had "conservative beliefs". Very telling. Islam isn't "conservative", it's hyper-conservative at best, perhaps better described as fascist.

He expresses our concerns about Muslims thus:

"They are reproducing at an unusually rapid pace, with fertility rates far higher than those of exhausted Western populations, and are poised to become a majority. And, yes, that is a danger because they are loyal not to their host society but to Islam, which, as these writers and activists see it, is not so much a faith as an ideology of conquest."


Exactly right. He answers such concerns, at best, with statistics. Well, you know what they say about statistics. I rarely quote them and I'm afraid I just don't place much credence in them. People use them (create them?) to their own advantage whenever they can. (I will say, however, that surveys Mr Saunders omitted to mention have shown alarming views among many UK-based Muslims.) You don't need "large scale studies" - you just need your eyes. Nothing can contradict what you see when you live in these places. We are not talking about little enclaves either, we are talking about large areas. That is why I believe what Ms Kelly says above what this man says. Indeed the first half of his article seems to describe what he actually saw and the second half (written, presumably, after he moved to Canada - I wonder why he did that..) might be described as wishful thinking. The kind of wishful thinking when comes when not so close to the problem, as Eisenhower once remarked.

Mr Saunders goes on to compare our problems with Islam with problems with Catholicism and Jews in the past. I think this is misunderstanding the nature of Islam and the sheer numbers we are dealing with here. Further, only yesterday I was reading (in Niall Ferguson's Civilization) about the massive contribution to human knowledge that has been made by Jews compared with Muslims. I could say a lot more about this but for now I'll just say I think he's wrong.

Like Mr Saunders, I'm not particularly keen on any religions, mainly because I don't think they're based on truth (though looking around at general depravity I can appreciate some of the things TD has said about this). I'm a "cultural christian" and I appreciate the good things Christianity has done, but I'm not in any mood to see a new "youthful" religion, growing, and growing, within our borders. Especially not Islam - evidence suggests it is particularly backward, intolerant and aggressive.

On other miscellaneous points:

Mr Saunders says:

"Because Muslim immigrants tend to come from poor, rural regions prone to overpopulation, they often arrive with large families and have many children soon after settling in their new country."


The large families could, of course, not be a consequence of being poor, this could just be their culture (and it could happen because they see it as their duty to spread their religion as fast as possible). Mr Saunders didn't mention the importing of wives, the sending of children to Pakistan for marriage, or the payment of benefits to multiple wives.

Regarding his use of statistics, I think Mr Saunders neglected to mention the rate of childbirth among European Muslims. Funny, that. This reminds us that even if one accepts the legitimacy of the statistics, we still have to be vigilant as to which are presented to us. As one commenter said to Mr Saunders "Try living in Malmo".

Among his statistics, further, is the idea that in 2030 Europe will be 7.1% Muslim. Well, maybe, maybe not. I'd guess more like 30% at going rates. But this is missing the point. 7.1% is surely 7.1% too many following such an intolerant ideology, the ideology which produces more suicide bombers than any other one in the world - it pretty much has a monopoly on this. Co-incidence? I'm sorry but I still doubt it.

Writing of European Muslims, Mr Saunders says

"They express loyalty to their home country and its secular institutions at the same, sometimes greater, rates as native-born citizens."


Well it's funny but when I look at photos of, just for example, William and Kate's wedding, I don't see a large evident Muslim contingent in the crowds. Not that many niqabs or burqas (words we never even expected to use in reference to the UK) from a city that is now minority English. I was there in the crowds actually, because my wife, who is American, is especially keen on that kind of thing: we saw none around us, that's for sure. We see none at any royal palaces either, or at stately homes. Evidence suggests that most Muslims are simply not interested in the traditions and history of their adopted country.

There are some in the police and even the army, but I bet they are "under-represented" there. Not because they are kept out of course, I'm sure these organisations are falling over themselves to get as many Muslims as possible on board. They're on the whole just not interested because they're "Muslim first, British second".

Mr Saunders says:

"Muslim immigrants in some places – notably Britain – are lagging behind in cultural integration. Like Jewish and Catholic immigrants before them, they are experiencing pockets of isolation and conservatism, and the economic effects of discrimination and lack of fluency."


Well, I think we all know it's nothing like the same as the Irish and the Jews, for reasons I've already mentioned. But here we see the "conservatism" remark again , this time along with a vague claim of "discrimination" thrown in just for good measure and a lack of fluency mentioned (presumably not their fault, of course). I'm not buying it.

Discussing Islamic terrorism, he says:

"Over and over, we find that those driven to extremism are not very religious and not very tightly linked to their surrounding immigrant communities; they tend to be middle-class loners, often with criminal histories."


I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. The 7/7 bombers were quite well integrated into their communities (their own communities, undercover in ours). Look at Nidal Malik Hasan, who murdered American soliders while undercover at Fort Hood (he was a member of the army and a psychiatrist, incidentally, who yelled "Allah Akbar" as he raised his gun and who has managed to prolong his trial for years by refusing to be shaved as is the custom - the American courts have now capitulated on this). I think I'm right in saying such terrorists often have no criminal record too.

He adds:

'The most devout, while culturally conservative, are the least politically extreme."


Well, a chance to get "conservative" in again, but also nonsense again. Possibly the most devout are often the most gullible and least intelligent and they cannot mastermind terrorist attacks. They sometimes try though: look at the shoe-bomber Richard Reid, whose plot went wrong. MI5 have foiled other plots too: I'm sure we don't get to hear about everything that is going on, but we hear a deafening silence from most Muslims on such matters. You don't see a lot of "Not in my name" rallies.

"The shisha bar and the kebab shop are becoming part of Western culture, much like espresso and Yiddish expressions – but there is no threat to our core values."


Well, this is even more telling than what came before. Just like espresso, then? Why can the liberal mind not understand that there is a lot more to a culture than its food? It's going to be a lot easier to integrate Italians than Afghans, but people would still be uncomfortable if there were enormous numbers of them, all speaking in their own language. We'd go to Italy for that.

"If we believe that our culture is so weak that it can be threatened by a small group of generally poor and vulnerable immigrants, then what is it worth?"


That's the point. Our culture is weak - or rather weakened. It has been under concerted attack from the Left for several decades. Also the immigrants are not at all vulnerable. They are sheltered under British law, time and time again double standards are applied - just look through this site. But our culture, the old culture, is worth a lot. The last thing we need is wide scale Islamic immigration. It would have been insane to even suggest this might be a good thing for Britain before it actually happened.

So thanks again for posting this, we need to see this kind of thing, but I personally didn't find it reassuring or convincing. If this is the best they can do then there really is a problem.

That article has over 3,000 comments and a short Q&A where some easy to handle comments were filtered through to the author. He responds by calling out anyone who is anonymous, not appreciating that he's the one toeing the PC line and they're risking their jobs by objecting to Islam. The commenters, though, give him a much rougher ride - I read up to page 3.

I'd like to think this guy was right, but I'm afraid I don't. I have explained why, to some degree, and fairly informally, in my comments above (I don't have time to write an even longer, more formal and meticulous response). I'd like to see less Islam and no more in the UK and the article did little to persuade me I was wrong in that.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Charlie » 01 Feb 2013, 22:59

Thanks for taking the time to read the article and reply Gavin - I'm going to have a good read through of your post tomorrow morning.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Elliott » 02 Feb 2013, 06:22

Elliott wrote:In Oswestry, they've just lost a church and gained a mosque, even though nearly twice as many people objected to the proposal as approved of it.

The very next day, news of two more probable mosques - one in postcard English village Chipping Norton:

Image

and one in the London district of Walthamstow:

Image

Of course, Walthamstow isn't quite the peaceful English town you might think from that photo. It is where the Muslim Patrol roamed for a few nights recently. There are already nine mosques in Walthamstow! But apparently a tenth mosque is necessary for the area's growing Muslim population.

Staggeringly, within the last three days another two mosque-related requests have been submitted in Walthamstow. One is a request to convert a pub into a mosque. The pub in question, the Waltham Oak, is 160 years old, and there was another pub on the site even before that. The other is a request to add a third floor to a mosque in Walthamstow Village - a village dating back to the 12th century at least.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Charlie » 02 Feb 2013, 09:56

Gavin wrote:I'd like to think this guy was right, but I'm afraid I don't. I have explained why, to some degree, and fairly informally, in my comments above (I don't have time to write an even longer, more formal and meticulous response). I'd like to see less Islam and no more in the UK and the article did little to persuade me I was wrong in that.


No, that's fair enough Gavin - thanks once again for reading through the article and responding to it. I'm with you for the most part, and like you said, it's always a good idea to check one's ideas regularly.

I turned on Radio 5 last night to find that the station was paying all of its attention to one particular news item:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/9843850/Traces-of-pork-DNA-found-in-Halal-prison-meat.html*

It was as if this was the only news out there. In fact, it was of such grave importance that every other news item had to be pushed to one side whilst the Beeb went about finding spokesmen from various Muslim groups, who just had to tell us how outraged they were about it all. The phrase "prisoner's rights" was used quite a few times, and none of them seemed to realise that there was the rub. If we ignore for one moment the fact that many non Muslims object to eating Halal meat, and that, yes, it's a great offence for Muslims to eat pork, we're still not talking about law-abiding citizens here - we're talking about prisoners. God forbid if say a murderer or paedophile had to eat something with "traces of pork DNA" in it - it must be so difficult for them!

One caller rang up, and in the most placatory manner possible, tentatively mentioned that unlabelled Halal meat was on sale in he UK, but this was met with "I'm sorry, we don't have any more time to respond to that". Later on, the presenter read out some texts from some listeners making the same point as I have above, only for the other guests to say things like "oh that's terrible!", and "that's appaling!".

Here's a quote from the BBC News article on the whole affair:
"Juliet Lyon, director of the Prison Reform Trust charity, said: "This lapse will have offended and distressed high numbers of Muslim prisoners and their families so apologising, suspending the supplier and investigating the incident are the right steps for the Ministry of Justice to take." "

They say "jump", we say "how high?".

*As usual, some of the comments at the bottom are a riot!
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 02 Feb 2013, 11:01

Thanks for alerting us to this. Typical behaviour from the BBC. I guess you've seen my own report on the halal issue. It's not a masterpiece, but it's something - more than the BBC would ever do. They just seem to be desperate for the day that Muslims can actually govern the UK (more than they do already). Record their names, each and every one, I say.

As for the mosques, that's terrible news. Gavin Bibby is a lawyer trying to fight mosque applications, but he says people have to get to him early. He can only fight them on practical grounds too. I'm not sure his battle is being won, or can be won as numbers grow. That's the problem I alluded to in another post: the legalities and the issue of democracy. I think ultimately it isn't going to be possible to limit Islam unless the call it by its name and just say it isn't welcome in the UK.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Paul » 02 Feb 2013, 11:29

Well there's something not right about the pork to prisoners story, apart from the obvious things that aren't right about the whole charade of Islamic grievances.

Charlie wrote:

Here's a quote from the BBC News article on the whole affair:
"Juliet Lyon, director of the Prison Reform Trust charity, said: "This lapse will have offended and distressed high numbers of Muslim prisoners and their families so apologising, suspending the supplier and investigating the incident are the right steps for the Ministry of Justice to take." "


It's a puzzle as to how this 'lapse' was discovered, for the BBC web site says:

[...]the results of the tests, undertaken by an independent agency, became known on Thursday.

A spokesman said: "All prisons have been informed about this very regrettable incident and we reported this issue to the Food Standards Agency immediately.

Surely it is the Food Standards Agency which is the expert body to conduct these sort of tests? Does anybody know who was the 'independent agency', and who was paying them to uncover this 'scandal'?

I find it hard to believe that the cash-strapped Ministry of Justice decided 'out of the blue' to check that those in its care (who had already broken a multitude of Koranic laws) were being fed in accordance with those beliefs?

Who is telling porky pies?


A mosque in Chipping Norton - it's almost beyond belief. It could only happen in a comic strip ........ or in England.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Nathan » 07 Feb 2013, 21:43

This is just getting a joke now. To make it worse, this man was caught entering the country on a false passport 18 years ago and then given asylum. Does our ruling class even want to protect us from these people?
http://www.standard.co.uk/panewsfeeds/suspected-terrorist-wins-appeal-8467063.html

A suspected terrorist from Algeria with links to supporters of al Qaida has won his appeal to stay on British soil over fears he may kill himself if deported.

The North African fanatic, who does not dispute posing a threat to national security and is currently free on bail, is believed to have provided travel arrangements and fake passports to terrorists.

But in a blow to the Home Office, a special immigration court has allowed the 43-year-old to remain in Britain amid concerns his human rights will be breached because he is likely to commit suicide once returned to his home country.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Charlie » 09 Feb 2013, 11:50

Nathan, that story is shocking - thanks for bringing it to our attention.
What a sad indictment of the UK. Yet again.

I don't know if you've seen Douglas Murray's latest blog post on the Spectator website. Ok, this one isn't about the UK, but the silence of the media on this issue, and in particular those on the left - that supposed bastion of "human rights" and "equality" - is shocking. Have a read if you haven't already:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/douglas-murray/2013/02/the-cowardly-and-hypocritical-media-abandons-lars-hedegaard/
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Nathan » 10 Feb 2013, 01:09

Charlie, I'll have a read of that tomorrow but before I go to bed I just had to post this: television channels aimed at Muslims in this country and broadcast on Sky have been found to have been broadcasting 'inflammatory material', which includes examples of an imam telling viewers that those who disrespect the prophet Mohammed should be killed, and another broadcaster saying homosexuals should be beaten and tortured. Could you even have imagined this stuff on British TV 15 years ago never mind in the 1950s?
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 10 Feb 2013, 01:29

The thing is, even if they don't say it they're still free to think it and intend it once numbers become great enough. These are a few foolish ones like Andy Choudhary, who say what they think out loud. Many others know full well what their book says and continue to be willing Muslims, but they know to stay quiet. (This won't be all Muslims, but I dare say a significant number, and regardless Islam remains objectionable and alien to the British way of life.) How many more examples like this until liberals understand?

When they do, I bet a lot of them will make out that they always had that view, but we will know better. It'll be recorded who aided the rise of Islam in the UK and who warned against it.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Elliott » 10 Feb 2013, 11:45

That Spectator blog has some good comments underneath it. Here's one I particularly liked:

Augustus wrote:Muslim prejudice is aggressive, while Western hostility to Muslims... is purely defensive.

What's missing in the accepted moral canons of the modern world is a sense of place, a sense that people acquire a special moral entitlement to a specific territory by virtue of living there for a long time and building a successful society there. The modern ideology of human rights takes no account of this. For that reason, it is unable to make a distinction between offence and defence and simply lumps them altogether under the rubric of 'intolerance'.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 10 Feb 2013, 12:17

What a great, honest and straightforward article by Mr Murray, who is almost a lone voice in the mainstream media. They put him on Question Time sometimes, but they make sure he's outnumbered by lefties (including the audience, of course). I like to see the Left called out on its cowardice, immorality and double standards, not that it makes a lot of difference though, it seems. Like the EU, they just ignore criticism.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Nathan » 10 Feb 2013, 12:57

It certainly is an excellent article, one which I fully agree with. To tie it in with matters pertaining to Islam in Britain, similar to this article calling out the Left for their silence on the Muslim Patrols (I can't remember how I came across that website - apologies if I'm reposting a link which I got from this site!), only it is more heartening when a more mainstream publication dares to mention what is staring us in the face.

To get more of a sense as to which way, and to what extent, the tide is turning, can anybody remember if anybody mainstream exposed the Left's double standards in the Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh murders ten years ago?
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Nathan » 17 Feb 2013, 14:24

Another Sunday, another couple of Islam stories in the papers. The first one concerns the MP for Tooting, Sadiq Khan, receiving death threats for voting in favour of gay marriage serious enough for police to be providing him with extra security. A head imam at a Bradford mosque has issued a fatwa against him and declared him an 'apostate', a crime which in many Muslim societies carries the death penalty.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279703/Death-threats-UKs-Muslim-MP-voted-gay-marriage.html

The second one, also in the Mail but the result of secret recording by the Sun of Anjem Choudary boasting of claiming 'jihad-seekers' allowance', justifying it by saying it is normal for us to be paying the jizya.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279972/Anjem-Choudary-Hate-preacher-pocketing-25-000-year-benefits-calls-fanatics-live-state.html

I am quite happy to say, both online and in real life, that I would happily support anybody prepared to simply get rid of these people regardless of niceties.
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