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Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 17 Dec 2012, 14:34
by Elliott
That's a good point, Jonathan. Perhaps, in my rush to fix little problems, I ended up distorting the truth somewhat.

So far, the comments have come from two places: the BBC and the Daily Telegraph. The BBC comments were of a slightly higher literacy standard than those on the DT. But the DT is a broadsheet newspaper and literacy is generally quite high among the readership.

I say quite high. You get the standard misspellings (seperate, etc.) and grammar is sometimes pretty bad (less instead of fewer, there is instead of there are, loosing instead of losing, etc.)

I would say the main shortcoming is punctuation. It is surprising how few people now know how to punctuate correctly. The main error is using commas instead of full stops (I have written about this in detail) whereby people just splurge their ideas out sequentially without putting them into a tangible, helpful order.

My guess is that most of the commenters are intelligent and university-educated, but grammar teaching is so abysmal nowadays that a well-educated person will not come across as "educated" in the way that their forebear would have 30 years ago. This muddies the water and makes it difficult to judge how educated somebody is; new standards are emerging, and I expect in 20 years it will be like this: if somebody can write a readable sentence, however mis-spelled or mis-punctuated, then they are "educated".

Another factor is that a perfectly literate person might rush their typing and not bother to look over it, so while they do know the rules, they don't implement them. This, again, makes it difficult to gauge their intelligence, because they are not taking the time to display it.

If you are asking whether I think there is a link between education and a person's views on multiculturalism, on the whole I don't. I think this is something which spans the intelligence spectrum. You get unintelligent people who are pro and anti-MC, and you get intelligent people who are pro and anti-MC. I don't think there is a bias either way, although people educated in STEM fields tend to be practical, down-to-earth and conservative (anti-MC) whereas people educated in the humanities tend to be airy-fairy, idealistic and liberal (pro-MC).

I think the bias towards MC does not come from intelligence/education, but the extent to which you want to be a good person but don't know how to do it. That puzzle can strike anyone in an Atheistic age, and it does, and egalitarianism presents itself as the solution.

Just look at the people who are pro-MC. They cannot explain why diversity makes for a good society, because they don't know what a good society would be. They just assume that, whatever a good society is, it must feature diversity. But they can't explain this assertion, and that's because they don't really know what is good and what is bad. It is no surprise that such people preach moral relativism: it is to protect their own moral confusion as much as to excuse barbarians' moral failings.

I think what distinguishes anti-MC commenters from pro-MC commenters is that the antis blatantly believe in something (their country, their culture etc.) whereas the pros believe only in egalitarianism. That belief seems to usurp everything else, as a black hole swallows light.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 17 Dec 2012, 16:13
by Maxwell
Elliott wrote:I think what distinguishes anti-MC commenters from pro-MC commenters is that the antis blatantly believe in something (their country, their culture etc.) whereas the pros believe only in egalitarianism. That belief seems to usurp everything else, as a black hole swallows light.

Faith in egalitariarism, appealing to the sense of fair play, is hard to shift. Perhaps, rather than arguing the toss over whatever the current equality issue may be, more emphasis should be focused on identifying egalitarianism as the unworkable utopian dogma that it is, and to explain the unappealing destination toward which it is directed: the inevitable expansion of bureacracy and suppression of individual freedom.

The author Kurt Vonnegut, hardly a poster boy for the right in his lifetime, wrote a pertinent story on the enforcement of equality called Harrison Bergeron. The ending is not a happy one.

Equality and Freedom are regarded by most left-leaners as the supreme objectives of mankind. The left tells them that they can have both, but this is a fantasy and a lie. Neither can there be a stasis without enforcing restrictions on the growth of bureacratic administration which, under left-oriented governance, cannot be enacted except by the bureacracy itself and thus will never occur.

The power of the left relies upon maintaining the momentum of change: there must always be a new restriction, justified on the basis of providing greater freedom for those to whom it does not apply. Ever smaller differences will receive ever greater restriction, eventually making the strictures of Islam look like Glastonbury Festival by comparison.

For the true believer of the left, freedom is by definition increased by equality.

Enable people to see the disparity between their personal definition of freedom and the inevitable outcome of the utopian equation and they may wake from the dream and avoid the nightmare.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012, 01:58
by Podori
Maxwell wrote:Enable people to see the disparity between their personal definition of freedom and the inevitable outcome of the utopian equation and they may wake from the dream and avoid the nightmare.

You may be surprised at how difficult that is. In South Korea, we have our share of communist sympathisers among the population of foreign teachers. They are aware of the horrors perpetrated in North Korea but they either deny them or claim, with the most mentally contorted rationalisations, that North Korea must maintain a military dictatorship in order to have a government that is capable of reacting quickly against American aggression.

Showing leftists the difference between freedom and egalitarianism will only work if, and only if, they are intelligent and mature enough to engage in calm, rational thought. Leftists are frequently incapable of this because their philosophy springs from emotion. To think calmly and rationally would undo the foundation of their beliefs. Just ask them: what does freedom mean? what does equality mean? They often won't give you a definition that makes sense on rational grounds; they'll tell you a definition that makes them feel good. Communist sympathisers - whom I have met and whom, frankly, I care little for - have told me all about the virtues of the struggle against the capitalist system. They believe it because it validates them; it is at is most basic an exercise of the ego.

And ego trumps thought. One of the most disturbing experiences of my life was to travel to the Demilitarised Zone and look across the border into North Korea. From where I stood, I could see huge black radio jamming towers, whose only purpose, we knew, was to keep the local population in ignorance by blocking transmissions from Seoul. If you can look at those ugly things and still be a communist, then you are well and truly gone.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012, 16:35
by Damo
The response I usually get, when pointing out the failed communist states such as the Soviet Union and North korea is:oh that's wasn't/not real communism.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012, 16:53
by Nathan
I'm keeping an interested eye on the comments for this article about Tony Blair saying immigration has been good for Britain.

It's been up an hour, but as I write there are already 255 comments, almost all negative and more than a few calling for him to be tried or even assassinated. Newspaper articles have been like this every day for a week now - I know it's the internet and it attracts all sorts but I really can sense the fury below the surface and it is pretty scary.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012, 17:09
by Gavin
Thanks for the alert. I wonder if Tony would like to live in Hackney, Burnt Oak, Hounslow, Southall, Forest Gate, Tower Hamlets...

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012, 19:20
by Nathan
That article now has now had over a thousand comments in 3.5 hours - faster than any Telegraph article I have ever seen. I imagine the editors knew that article with an open comment section would be red rag to a bull but reading many if not most of those posts makes me shudder at the amount of suppressed rage there is out there, justified or not.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012, 20:59
by Gavin
I think this indicates the widespread fury in the country. Some might say "Well that is only in The Telegraph". Indeed, that is only those who dare to comment, even anonymously. Anyone can see what has actually happened because it is plain to the eye. I think the facade is cracking and people will even start expressing their feelings publicly soon.

Frank Fisher wrote:I have no interest in anything this man says. I will not be interested until he is saying it on oath, and on trial.

Cidermonkey wrote:I won't be interested till the bastard is on a slab

Frank Fisher wrote:No no, let's give him his fair trial first. Alastair in the dock next to him. Brown on remand, waiting his turn.

I agree with Mr Fisher, as I often do.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012, 21:35
by Nathan
Some more of the highest-rated comments, in their original state:

buckmoody wrote:We will have justice Tony. You will be held accountable for your treason and your crimes against humanity. Don't think you'll get away with it you psychotic mass-murdering bastard!

bob228 wrote:THe poor guy is seriously deluded. He regards himself as having been the saviour of the UK bringing untold wealth to the UK with all these migrants.

THe reality is of course that Blair & Brown bought the UK to its knees and we are still paying the price of it with falling living standards

THe trouble is amongst a lot of the political class he is still see him as a hero and it is the political class that hold all the power in the UK and not the electorate.

flintman wrote:Here speaks a man who can never walk alone anywhere in the land where he was born.

nbforrest wrote:Blair knows his immigration policies have ruined your great country. He is desperately trying to salvage some sort of legacy instead of being remembered as the murderer of Great Britain.

dunroamin wrote:TONY BLAIR, you had no mandate for mass immigration, not then and not now. Even if you did, you did not plan for it. It was deliberate but completely unplanned. You gave no thought to the infrastructure that would be needed to support so many extra millions, because to do so would have been an admission of what you were up to. No, you invented Equality & Diversity and enacted the race hate laws, that was the limit of your preparations. You are an evil bastard and a traitor who deserves to be hung, drawn and quartered. I would gladly watch that, but there would be a good many others pushing to the front row.

and a response to the above...

splashes wrote:I endorse everything you say, could just add bloody war criminal and to think I actually voted for the bastard because I really believed he stood for honesty and justice at the time.

Verdonk wrote:Blair opened the floodgates and used repopulation of England as an alternative route to dig out 'middle England' and its conservative culture. Labour was unelectable using socialism, so it found another way to attack our value system.

Mass migration, plus the Equality laws favouring minorities, plus Human Rights, plus a complete lack of integration drivers, has led to what we seen in the recent Census. A divided, resentful, society in which 'communities' fight for the biggest slice of the cake - the bog standard Joe Public alone has no minority card to play, and is forced to pay out for the welfare of incomers with no love for the UK and its now disappearing values of democracy, freedom of speech, and women's freedoms.

Blair really is an odious hypocrite: he turned on the taps for party political reasons, and killed off the blue collar culture and now marginalises core middle class values.

lancasharia wrote:It seems that 95% of Britons agree in their condemnation of Blair and immigration, but what will be done about it? Nothing, if you listen to the politicians. We just have to accept it apparently. Not me, for one.

WorthSaying wrote:We have to reappropriate the word 'racism'. At every opportunity we must point out that replacing us with immigrants is racism as is replacing our culture with multiculturalism.

The racists are those who cheer to the echo when the census results show white people being driven into minority.

WorthSaying wrote:Even Enoch Powell didn't predict that within 15 years of his death white people would be driven to minority in London.

The Establishment and Tony Blair himself must be aware of what's being said - I'd imagine there have been thousands of angry letters headed his way in recent days as well. Which politician will dare to be the first to say in public what so many are thinking though?

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012, 22:04
by Gavin
Well, I heard a "conservative" saying on Any Questions over the weekend that the British public were never consulted over this unlimited immigration - that is only a start though, I admit, and I could not bear to listen to the programme for more than a few minutes. I would never vote for anyone Tory now. That mere word sends the same shiver up me that "Labour" does. Some honest party is going to be required now.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012, 01:15
by Paul
The whole of the Libertarian blogosphere now has daily mentions of lamp-posts and telegraph wire (as opposed to telegraph newspapers), and that in respect of a very broad political class indeed, local as well as national. Foolish, melodramatic and ultimately wrong (to say the least - insofar as lynch mobs), but a measure of the mounting fury as you say. Scary also as Nathan says. The nation is going to fracture violently and that real soon I suspect unless we're 'lucky'....... and continue taking more of the same. I can see 2013 being a powder keg in many ways.

Blair notwithstanding, I reckon by far the most creepy and insidious major politician of recent times must be Mandelson. A dangerous individual if ever there was one.

Probably the best piece on Blair I've yet read is the one by TD (no surprise) entitled (I think) - Delusions of Honesty. It's on City Journal.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012, 00:36
by Gavin
Quite unbelievable comments among the 2,500 on The Telegraph about this now - and they say that the moderators have removed many:

DiversityIsDeath wrote:Blair is a traitor and a sell-out. He should be put on trial for high treason!

disgusted_of_tunbridge_wells wrote:This man deserves to be sent to prison for a very long time.

richard3 wrote:This man is a criminal and should be prosecuted for lies and treachery and murder. He is a travesty of a human being.

Catnap wrote:The traitor Blair should HANG for treason

Ironwand wrote:Tony Blair is a traitor. He must, after the death penalty has been restored for treason, (a penalty he, himself, removed from the statute books) be tried for this crime, found guilty and, please God, executed.

He isn't very popular over at The Guardian either, but there they are principally angry with him for embellishing his justifications for going to war in Iraq, and for lining his own pockets. The thing is, while I am with them on Blair's hypocrisy, many on the Left seem to have a problem with people lining their pockets in general. Also, we all know how the Left feel about the need to get involved and free persecuted peoples etc., yet when anybody does, they are up in arms about it. So personally I always found them a bit two-faced on Iraq too.

In any case there has surely never been such a fall from grace as Blair's. Hated by both Left and Right now - more hated than Mrs T ever was, I think - at least the Right liked her! I remember the evening Labour got in and Blair was all smiles. The Left were elated - they didn't know him very well.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 26 Dec 2012, 02:03
by Podori
This post is for Nathan.

I have looked high and low on YouTube for the Dalrymple speech in which the doctor uses the term "rank xenophobe" but I cannot find it. I shall have to retract the point I made in relation to his use of that expression.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 31 Dec 2012, 16:06
by Nathan
Another day, another set of articles in the Telegraph with an immigration/multiculture slant to them, each with hundreds of comments. The comments below are from an article entitled "Why doesn't this country take more pride in itself?" and although there are a number of comments raising very interesting points I'll keep to the topic of the thread and only include those which strictly pertain to multiculture and mass immigration.

I would be very interested to know how old many of these commenters are. Judging that this country will one day have a big reconstruction job on its hands there is a big difference between comments made by ageing Baby Boomers who regret the society created by them or their contemporaries, or the same sentiment expressed by twenty- and thirtysomethings who know we'll be left to pick up the pieces.

steavey wrote:The UK as a nation cannot control its border. That being the case, citizens lose heart when confronted by women covered in veils. And when foreign criminals and terrorists are allowed to remain in the UK on a life on benefits with smirks across their faces.

thisday wrote:Multiculti has been a false god exploited by Blair to make this country ungovernable.

kbo1 wrote:Why on earth would I be proud of the BBC? They are foremost in pushing the multi-culti agenda and making any idea of pride in being British synonymous with racism. How many times have they told us how dreary our island was without lots of colourful and vibrant diversity?

adams wrote:It makes me so proud when I am on a crowded bus in SE London and I am the only white person on the bus. Thank you LibLabCon for this immense benefit.

mikenewland wrote:A fascinating exchange below.

Someone says we British have been reduced to an ethnic minority in our own capital. Involuntarily of course.

Someone else says if you don't like it leave the country.

We need a political revolution.

rogerhicks wrote:Why doesn’t this country take more pride in itself?
What is there to be proud of? The fact that we've reduced native Britons to an ethnic minority in their own capital city, with the country as a whole to follow within a few short decades . . ??

Are we supposed to be proud of the racial self-hatred and self-contempt of our political elite?

I'm not proud, but ashamed and pained.

patriot1721 wrote:We don't take pride in our country because if we do, we are regarded as racists. We are expected to toe the line and look upon and laud multiculturalism as the future, and air brush our true history.

Re: Public comments on multiculturalism and mass immigration

PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 10:03
by Elliott
Here's a good comment, from an unrelated Telegraph article:

PC Escape wrote:Speaking as someone who left Britain ten years ago, mainly because so many of things I used to love about the country were disappearing fast, or had already disappeared, when I read the other day that the census revealed that only 45% of people living in London are "white British", I really despair for Britain, in the sense of it retaining the values and characteristics that the world has for centuries associated with it.

And if a country loses those - then what does it mean to belong to that country?

Just that you happen to reside on that particular island? That you are in it, but not of any definable unifying culture, or way of seeing the world?

Or that you merely hold that particular passport?

That's about all it will mean to be British - and pretty soon, too.

Of course, the PC brigade will scream their normal curse words - "Racist!" and "Fascist" (even though it is actually THEY who are much closer to being fascists - because they cannot tolerate anyone who doesn't subscribe to their dogma).

So it's not politically correct to dare to offend the PC morons - ie those numbskulls who cannot form their own opinions, but blindingly and unthinkingly mouth the PC dogma they've heard, which is fashionable, to which their friends will nod in approval 'Yeah, yeah') - but the fact of the matter is that with immigrants producing far more children than non-immigrants (a statistical fact), and with yet more vast quantities of immigrants soon to descend on this vastly overcrowded island - from Bulgaria, or whatever dump they're coming from, to beg with children in their hands on street corners.... what will be left of the cultural identity of Britain which has developed over the last 1000 years?

I've never been able to figure out how even the PC morons would not suggest that people should feel an obligation to let anyone on the street come to live in their homes, and lie on their sofas - but to suggest that the same should be true of people's right to decide who comes to live in their COUNTRY is outrageous and "fascist" and "racist".