Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

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Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Gavin » 21 Jul 2013, 18:41

Today and yesterday I was at the English Heritage History Live! event in Kelmarsh, Northamptonshire. I am told it is the largest event of its kind in Europe, and it was very enjoyable - there were hundreds of stalls and dozens of re-enactments which brought English history alive. There were even fly-bys by Spitfires and parachutists.

In many ways I found this event extremely refreshing - mainly because I saw nice people there. For once! Pleasant people with light in their eyes. Nice families with well behaved children. People without coarse faces, expressions of hatred and arms full of tattoos. In fact I hardly saw any tattoos. Incredibly, I did not hear a single F word in two days. I could almost feel hope flow back into me, but then I reminded myself of our cities full of thugs, our millions on benefits and the ongoing process of Islamification.

While at the event, I made another observation which has a place on this forum. Although I saw thousands of people of all ages, on the second day it occurred to me (mainly because at one point I was reading this excellent Dalrymple article on my phone) that I had not seen a single black person. Of course, once I noticed this to be the case I was disappointed and tried to see some. I could not see one. There were apparently none there. Neither did I spot a single obvious Muslim (and let's face it, Muslims usually like to be obvious - "When in Rome" is not a policy to which they subscribe).

Among thousands of people, why should these groups, so large in our cities, be under-represented to the point of there being none there at all? After all, when I drove back into Northampton I immediately saw dozens of black people on the streets. This is surely a question of interest and even importance if we are to go forward as a harmonious society.

Many white English people show great interest in African nations which have made few, if any, contributions to civilisation, even though they do not live there and have not adopted them as their homelands. Yet, by this evidence, here in the UK people of African ancestry and Muslims have no interest at all in the history of their adopted country. Is this not both insulting and injurious to social cohesion? I think it is.

If "slavery" is the problem, then it must be repeated that Africans continue to enslave their own people even today, and Saudi Arabia (still a barbaric country) only banned slavery, finally, in 1973.

In the case of black people, the cause may be racism - they see this is a colour issue rather than just a matter of understanding the history of their adopted nation. In the case of Muslims I believe the reason is that they have no interest in our history and would much rather see Islam supplant British culture. Alternatively the cause may be, at least in part, the liberal attitude (drummed in by "education") that there is nothing to be learned from the past and westerners are just universally evil. A very ignorant and foolish, but popular, view.

Pertaining to black people and Islam, I turned on the BBC News (not at my home address) today and immediately saw a Muslim woman talking about human rights problems (blacks enslaving each other) in Yemen. Business as usual for the BBC, I thought, but then I looked at the problems and I thought, what do they want us to do to solve this (assuming we even have any moral duty to do so rather than to simply solve our own problems in the UK)? Throwing money at it is no good. The money is appropriated, these countries are utterly corrupt.

When have such countries prospered? When they have been under European rule. Drainage systems and railways were built. Parliamentary systems established. Many have still not substantially moved forward from this point. The slightly controversial thought occurred to me that perhaps the liberal, if he really cares, should be in fact be arguing for the re-colonisation of Africa. A root and branch cleaning out of their corrupt governments to follow. Similarly the liberal ought to have been behind the ousting of murderous dictator Saddam Hussein and the establishment of democracy in Iraq (but as we know, they weren't).

Anyway, I urge a re-reading of that first rate article by Dalrymple, given current tensions in society. It is not only (or even perhaps most often) white people who are racist. Black people can be too. Good standards should be sought from all. These surely include an interest in the history of one's adopted country, or country of birth.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Yessica » 22 Jul 2013, 14:31

I made the same observation at a medival fair, which was held in a very diverse city.

In another somewhat diverse city there was a fair of technical toys. I made the same observation. It did not charge any fee so that everybody was free to go there. Also I saw signs inviting parents to come and this advertising was done in several languages... but only whites and an occasional east asian had come. Of the numerous Turks of this city none were seen.

I agree that is an insult how less some people care about our history and about getting their children interesting in technics which is the product but also the building stone of our civilization... and it is the same people who will later complain that their children failed the history or technics class and call it discrimination.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Nathan » 02 Aug 2013, 18:49

I wasn't entirely sure where to put this, but here seems as good a place as any.

It has become declassified information recently that in a private conversation with Margaret Thatcher 30 years ago Helmut Kohl discussed the idea of reducing the number of Turks in the Germany by half, as he saw them in particular as unassimilable with regards to German society. (He then set up a fairly generous scheme of financial incentives for foreigners to go back home, though didn't find as many takers as expected.)

Shame we'll have to wait 30 years to find out what gets said behind closed doors nowadays!
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Gavin » 02 Aug 2013, 18:58

Well, they're saying that the very phrase "Go home" addressed to illegal immigrants is "racist" now. It makes you wonder what hope there is in this Alice in Wonderland society. The government has just made a few token efforts to address some of the problems we discuss on this site and been instantly under attack. Maybe if the BBC had a conservative instead of a liberal slant it could just not report the objections, which is how it generally handles conservative objections.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Elliott » 02 Aug 2013, 19:57

Gavin wrote:The government has just made a few token efforts to address some of the problems we discuss on this site and been instantly under attack.

What an absolute joke. Even Nigel Farage has chipped in, saying that random spot checks are "un-British".

Yet again, Doreen Lawrence milks her son's murder to protest against this move by Brits to protect their homeland, and the Equality and Human Rights Commission has been called in and are conducting an investigation. God knows how much that will be costing (of the public's money).

As you say, Gavin, what chance is there of protecting or reclaiming this country when the Government is immediately attacked (by our left-wing media and quangocracy) for attempting to do so.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Paul » 02 Aug 2013, 21:21

Doreen Lawrence eh? She's being called to sit in the House of Lords as a peer (!!) I suppose you've heard. Be under no doubt that her missions will be that of dismantling.

Alice in Wonderland country indeed. Or Disney. Far from the royal family being a Disney attraction, the government are already there!
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Gavin » 06 May 2014, 19:02

This weekend I was in a particularly beautiful part of England - the Lake District. The picturesque town of Ambleside, to be precise.

20140505_111252.jpg


I would recommend to anyone thinking of visiting England that you do not visit London, unless it is on a mission to observe how few English people are there now, but instead visit remaining places that have English culture and English people, and not just very old English architecture. That would include Lake District towns, nestled among the mountains there, and towns such as Bath and York, where multiculturalist liberals like to retire.

In these towns it is 50/50 whether you will meet liberals or conservatives (real ones, I mean): some people will know how good they've got it and will want to defend our western values and culture, while others will be hopelessly out of touch with the realities of cities (being very privileged) and will harbour naive views about immigration - not considering mass Islamic immigration.

I took my chances, as usual, because I consider our situation too dire for us to remain silent now. I began by testing the ground with one educated local at one point, hinting at my views as we chatted in a pub, but pretty soon I said: "Look, I'm going to speak straight. I've been working in Birmingham and it's half colonised now. Everywhere I look I see burqas and niqabs. We're losing our country - we're losing.. this." I realised that I didn't really care what he responded as he wan't employing me, if he wasn't on my side he should be, and I probably wouldn't meet him again.

I got the usual response - a little surprised, then opening up and agreeing - almost relieved that someone had just come out with it.

But why have I put this in this thread? Well, over the weekend throughout this lovely region of the UK (also known as Cumbria or just "The National Park") I saw not a single black or Muslim person. Why on earth might that be? Are they being stopped at the border? No, rather they have no interest visiting, clearly. But it is interesting to consider why that might be, too.

I thought about it and I think it might be because to visit such areas shows a deliberate attempt to connect with, and appreciate, English culture and heritage, and that is something most newcomers plainly do not want to do. They feel no affinity with this country and its history. Apparently they did not move here because they love this country (i.e. how it was, not how they are trying to make it be), yet this is - I believe - the only circumstances under which immigration should occur.

On my return I passed through Preston railway station. There are drawings on the wall marking an occasion in 1916 when thousands of Englishmen attended a free buffet before being deployed into the horrors of the First World War, where many died in defence of their country and culture.

20140505_180149.jpg


20140505_180208.jpg


Nobody else but me seemed to be paying a blind bit of attention to these enormous notices. I wondered whether that might be because most of the people were foreign. But even then wouldn't you take particular interest? I know I would if I was in, say, Israel, and there were some big notices about important historical events there. Indifference, as a guest, shows a kind of contempt.

Many current residents do not regard themselves as guests, yet do not feel any historical connection with this country either. It is not their ancestors on the wall, so despite the fact they these people built and defended the country we now enjoy (or try to enjoy!) they feel no particular affiliation or affection for them. Meanwhile, native English schoolchildren are taught by the Left that everything is relative and we did wrong, etc. etc. I find this combination very regrettable.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Yessica » 06 May 2014, 19:49

Gavin wrote:On my return I passed through Preston railway station. There are drawings on the wall marking an occasion in 1916 when thousands of Englishmen attended a free buffet before being deployed into the horrors of the First World War, where many died in defence of their country and culture.


As you know I do not live in Britain... but if I did. I do not know what my reaction would be.
I know we were the bad ones in two world wars... but if I were a German immigrant to your country I could not look at that with pride or happiness in my heart. There has been suffering and hurt on both side.
Unfortunately the Germans caused it. True.

We started watching "Band of Brothers" but stopped after the first sequel (when the fighting started) as we did not like it. It is just not a movie for Germans I guess.

Please do not get me wrong, I do not want to say that it was in any way right of us to start two (or 1 1/2 because Austria-Hungary also did their bit) world wars.

My reaction... I guess... would rather be sadness for the dead on both sides and thinking how war, while sometimes unavoidable, causes nothing but hurt and does nobody well... and I probably would try not to look at it.

My question is: what would you like a German immigrant to Britain to do?
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Nathan » 06 May 2014, 20:31

I'd just expect you to be curious about it and perhaps think about the human stories in a small part of history which you probably didn't know about before, and which now feels real seeing it in person like that. I would never expect you to feel any kind of personal guilt about it.

I remember learning about the firestorm of Dresden at school and how the death toll was so much higher than what we suffered in the Blitz, but it never seemed "real" until when I first went to Dresden, and when taking the tram through a typical post-war housing estate I saw a ruin of an old church, which looked completely out of place. I guessed straight away what it was, and got out to have a look, and there was a plaque on the wall saying that yes, the church had been destroyed by the Allies in 1945, and the ruin had been left as a memorial to those killed in the bombing raids.

I'd never seen a physical reminder of anything bad done by "my people" before, so the novelty value alone was worth thinking about that side of it, but I just took a minute to try and think about people back then coming out of their houses after it was all over and noticing their church was destroyed. The historical interest of the place overrode any feeling of having been in any way responsible. I've been to the Slavery Museum in Liverpool and saw it just as dispassionately, too.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Paul » 06 May 2014, 23:25

Yessica wrote:My question is: what would you like a German immigrant to Britain to do?


You wouldn't have to do anything out of the ordinary. There is no anti-German feeling left in Britain. I've never seen a trace of it. A casual friend of mine, though he's moved and I don't see him as often, is married to a German.

Upon visiting Oradur-sur-Glane in France I was more than a little surprised to see, in the reception or visitors' centre, not only a great amount of information on the walls in French and English but also translated into German. In addition there were several German visitors (holidaymakers) there that day, as there must be regularly, hence the translations.

I was quite impressed then to realise the forgiveness shown in this case by the French and the genuine desire to know about it by the Germans. In this particular case, the English, and others, are more bystanders.

There is, in some small southern French villages (though I couldn't remember the names) still some small, lingering evidence of the Hundred Years War and, allegedly, still a tiny trace of anti-English feeling.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Yessica » 07 May 2014, 10:05

I think you are talking about the Frauenkirche

After a discussion it has been decided it should be rebuild and that has been done now (you might want to look at how it looks now at their, I think a good job has been done), which much help from British donations and the British son of a bomber pilote has build the cross for the church.

To my mind the decision to rebuild it has been a good one: Those bombings should be remembered but I am opposed to using it to guilt-trip people.

What should be done to my mind is:
a) keep the memory alive how WWI and WWII started in order to prevent a third
b) keep the memory alive that war can be less than ennobling - also to prevent unneccessary wars.

The English commemoration ceremonies must be a bit different than ours I assume, as I assume there is also a bit of pride.
In Germany we have the "Volkstrauertag" "People's day of sadness" when we think of the dead from wars and the evangelical church remembers them (and all others who have died) on the "Totensonntag" ("Sunday of the dead"): We do not play happy music (which is forbidden and the police controlls it watchfully) and put flowers and candles on the cenotaphs, and there is also church services.

I don't know if something like this exist in Britain. I know you have the poppy day but is it more a day of happiness or of sadness?
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Nathan » 07 May 2014, 21:01

No, it wasn't the Frauenkirche because that had already been rebuilt by the time I went there, just an ordinary church in a residential neighbourhood - I've tried Googling it but can't find anything.

Remembrance Day isn't triumphalist at all - not about celebrating winning wars but about remembering the people who died in them. I think it has become more important to people in recent years, considering we recognise that the WW2 generation are not going to be around much longer and the reality of war is starting to become harder to understand now it is passing out of living memory.

Strange how even though I've been in Germany in November before I don't remember how the event was marked over there at all. It sounds a little like our ceremonies, only there is no talk of "happy music" (what do you mean?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQO08IOyZ7M

Do you have any Stolpersteine (little memorial stones to remember individual Holocaust victims) where you live? I've never noticed them when I've been there, but I've heard that some towns now have hundreds and hundreds of them, and many people think it is excessive and overly sentimental having to be reminded on a daily basis of what went on.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Yessica » 08 May 2014, 11:41

It is not easy to notice both for a guest to Germany unless he likes to hang around cemetaries or cenotaphs or tries to do one of the things that are forbidden on those days.

The "People's sadness day" as well as the Sunday of the dead are so called "silent days" ("stille Tage") and certain actions are forbidden, what is depends on local laws. Typically forbidden actions include playing happy music in public, showing funny movies, dancing, attending sports events, decorating the streets in a festive way and so on.
Guest may not notice that unlike they try to find a dancing club opened and there is not any.

There is some controversy about that because some people think it is quite dictatoric.

We do not have signs like the red poppy... but some people do dress in black / subdued colours on the "Sunday of the dead" and do not wear any jewlery or make-up. Again I do not think that will be noticed by a guest, who does not know how the person dresses on other days.

Re: Stolpersteine. Were I live now there are none, but in a nearby town there are some, though I do not know if they are the "real ones" (which are all down by a certain artist as far as I know) or a copy.

How do I think about them? They are a good idea.
To my mind it is important to remember the Holocaust and analyze how it or other genocides happened.

To my mind some teachers in our schools are overly sentimental as they only say the holocaust was very bad and the Germans are a bad people. There is not enough analysis, like "are there certain patterns which lead to genocide?" and "how can they be prevented?".
Genocide is different than war. People must be reminded that war is not good because young men are "drawn" to wars as evidenced by the wealth of war computer games like "Call of duty". That is why it is important to point out the reality of war is nothing like in the games or movies.There are no genocide games. People instinctively know it is wrong and mustn't be reminded. That is why we must try to scientifically understand why our conscience is sometimes "switched off".

By the way, don't you have any celebrations of winning the war or just not on poppy day?
I have been told there is a lot of war reenactment in Britain, is that true?

Today is the day of end of WWII. Is that remembered?

I know there has been a military intervention of the British forces in Iraq and there are still British soldiers in Afghanistan as a part of the ISAF.
Is that an important fact for British life or is it rather the case that most British people do not know any soldiers and do not feel directly involved?

How is the status of the WWII veterans but also of the veterans from others wars in the British society today?
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Jonathan » 08 May 2014, 21:52

Yessica wrote: Typically forbidden actions include playing happy music in public, showing funny movies,


Interesting that you should mention that. In Israel there is no happy music on Holocaust Memorial day or on the Day of Remembrance. Also, no foreign songs - everything is in Hebrew. There's also a sub-genre of memorial songs which are rarely played on other days. It's generally agreed that the best music is on these days.

None of this is enforced by the police or anything like that - it's all voluntary, though of course I'm sure there are channels I never listen to that don't observe this tradition (e.g. Arab channels).

Most of the television channels are blacked out, unless they're showing documentaries, or interviews with survivors, etc.

Today is the day of end of WWII. Is that remembered?


Here it's usually noted, but not observed in any special way. There's a parade of Russian veterans of the war - there are quite a few in Israel - but that takes place a day later (if I'm not mistaken) because the Russians observe V-E day a day later than the rest of Europe.

Nathan wrote:It sounds a little like our ceremonies


Would it be too much trouble to describe how Remembrance Day is usually observed by the average person? Is there a moment of silence? If so, how exactly does that work?

I'm curious to compare it with what we do here - sometimes the similarities can be surprising.

Yessica wrote:My question is: what would you like a German immigrant to Britain to do?


Ha. This reminds me of a documentary they had on TV a few weeks ago on Holocaust Memorial day. They were following two German policemen who came to Israel to gather evidence from Holocaust survivors for some lawsuit in Germany against a concentration camp security guard.

So after watching them chat (in German) with a couple of great-grandmothers with numbers tattooed on their arms, they cut to an interview. And the journalist asks the poor policeman a question perfectly crafted to discomfit him without being openly rude (something like 'how did you feel interviewing a woman your grandfather's generation tried to murder?'). Poor guy. He's a policeman, not a diplomat. You could see rivulets of sweat running down his face - which is what the question was for, to be honest. But he did well in replying, and the interview moved on.

I guess wherever Germans go they risk being discomfited or embarrassed on account of the war. It's hardly fair to the individual to suffer embarrassment for what his grandfather's generation did. But as a People, well, there are other Peoples who suffer worse without having started 1.5 world wars.
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Re: Refusal of minorities to integrate into host nation

Postby Nathan » 09 May 2014, 10:10

Yessica wrote:By the way, don't you have any celebrations of winning the war or just not on poppy day?
I have been told there is a lot of war reenactment in Britain, is that true?

Today is the day of end of WWII. Is that remembered?

I know there has been a military intervention of the British forces in Iraq and there are still British soldiers in Afghanistan as a part of the ISAF.
Is that an important fact for British life or is it rather the case that most British people do not know any soldiers and do not feel directly involved?

How is the status of the WWII veterans but also of the veterans from others wars in the British society today?


Hmm, lots of questions! Maybe some of the other British people might like to fill in my answers if they aren't all that full.

We don't have any public celebrations of winning the war like the big parade they have every year in Moscow. I knew the war ended on 8th May, but the fact that yesterday was 8th May completely passed me by until I read your post!

Most people would probably have no idea which date the war ended on, and it's not really marked at all, though there will probably be public events next year on the 70th anniversary like there were for 50 and 60 years. I've never been to one, so couldn't say what they were like. They are mostly of interest for people who fought in the war or whose close relatives did, or maybe ex-military people as a whole. I would imagine it's a nostalgia trip, with quite a bit of sadness attached to it because of how many of that generation have recently died and will die before the 75th anniversary.

There is a lot of nostalgic fondness for that era because of how the war drew people together like never since - I've heard that the year with the lowest number of recorded suicides is still 1941. I think a lot of people felt proud of how we held on on our own for 18 months against an enemy that was much better trained and better equipped, and of how we were on the "good" side. Churchill is probably still the most respected historical figure here, even if many won't be able to tell you anything else about his life other than being the wartime leader.

You can still quite easily find quite childish attitudes about Germany and the war here unfortunately, mostly from people who don't know anything else about German history. For example, there's a pub I used to go to where the Warsteiner beer was called a "war-starter", and where people used to give you funny looks if you pronounced the word properly.

I don't know anybody who takes part in war re-enactment, though no doubt there are many societies going strong. Near to where I grew up there is an annual 1940s themed weekend (which I've never been to! Actually I'd quite like to go this year, considering it's next weekend.) Looking at the pictures it does have a strong military theme, though I'm sure it's a very friendly atmosphere, and if a German went along they would be very welcome and people would be very curious. (The village it takes place in is close to Keighley and Bradford with their big Pakistani populations - anybody want to guess how many of them are interested in attending?)

http://www.haworth-village.org.uk/event ... nt=Haworth 1940s Weekend

I only know about three people who have fought in Afghanistan / Iraq. It has been interesting to see how much more respect the public have for the military now compared to 2001 when it all started. I think it's because most people can't personally relate to war having never seen it for themselves, and because people have sympathy for them being sent to do quite a pointless job.

http://www.armedforcesday.org.uk/index.aspx

There's a special day now called Armed Forces Day, which never existed before a few years ago. I went to the one in York last year and it had military bands playing, a demonstration of some of the equipment, a mini assault course for children, etc. It's quite well supported and quite friendly and informal.

I was very shocked last year to go back to a pub I used to go to see bands play (it used to be where the "cool kids" went, heh!) when I was about 17 or 18 and there was now a British flag behind the bar and a "Help for Heroes" (military charity) flag next to it. That would have been unthinkable in 2001.

I actually found a blog a week or two ago written by a German girl who came to work as a language assistant at my old school about three or four years ago - she mentioned the differences she saw between Volkstrauertag and our Remembrance Day. You might find a lot of her other observations interesting as well.

http://the-lines-between.blogspot.co.uk ... chive.html

And Jonathan, about Remembrance Day - it isn't a public holiday, but a lot of public places have a two-minutes' silence at 11 am on 11th November, and people wear a little red poppy on their jackets. (The parades are on the nearest Sunday to it.) I don't think I've ever stopped for the silence at work, but at school we always used to have a little ceremony commemorating the Old Boys who had died in wars, with a wreath-laying ceremony and this piece of music played on a bugle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlYtlyFSTlU
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