Germany and the refugee crisis

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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Nathan » 14 Oct 2015, 20:14

Yessica wrote:According to a new poll 1/3 want Merkel to reseign ands only 19% believe Germany can absorb more refugees.


That's what shocks me the most about this saga - only a third?! Is there no tradition of German politicians resigning after making serious misjudgements like what Merkel has done? Especially considering she is supposed to be a conservative and letting in just anybody who wants to come is about the least conservative action a politician can take!

I'm certain that if a Conservative prime minister in Britain had done this then their own party would have brought a vote of no-confidence against them and they would have been forced to resign weeks ago now.

I was forwarded a link to this video today. I can't make out what it is actually all about, but I think it speaks for itself:

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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Yessica » 15 Oct 2015, 08:07

I think this video is about refugees shouting "Allah-u akbar" - "God is great".

Why don't more people want her to resign? That's a good question. I think it might have to do with our culture.
Germans say that there are two kinds of virtues.
Secondary virtues like for example efficiency, punctuality, diligence and primary virtues like loyality, selflessness, compassion, valor.
When people from other countries talk about German virtues they often seem to think of the secondary virtues, but in fact the secondary virtues are seen as unimportant in Germany. Germans tend to think that it is the primary virtues that matter.

Those primary virtues often are seen as the very core of the culture we had before 1933 and we build after 1945. Think of the people who still are loyal to Merkel such as Joachim Gauck who was a citizens rights advocate in the GDR. He allegorizes the virtue of valor.

Now Merkel and Gauck say that the people who are worried over the immigration are "fearful". Magazines like "Die Zeit" vor example do the same thing. They run articles about fearfulness. People in other countries talk about "German Angst", but maybe you know that we Germans say that the world belongs to the valorous - "Den Mutigen gehört die Welt".

So Merkel makes it look like there are only two kinds of people in Germany: 1) cowardly individuals who have no compassion and 2) the valorous ones who show the world the virtuosness of Germans, who show the world we are no longer Nazis.
Merkel says we are living in historic times, this is a historic moment, we show the world how much we have changed since 1933.

Another virtue is loyality. We have voted for her, now stick to it. "The one who says A must say B", lack of loyality is seen as despicable in our culture.

So there are people who say "Merkel just does not know what is going on in the counties and cities and if she only knew and would only understand she would come up with a plan".

Oh, yes, the plan by the way. Merkel hints she has one, but she never says what it is but some not very educated people fall for this and say that Merkel will unveil her plan soon and everything will be just fine after that.

There are many people who think that the world is looking at Germany now. I doubt it. The topic is not even in the international news anymore. However they think everybody is looking at us and when we speak out they will say "Look at those "backstabbing" Germans. Yes, I always knew they were a bunch of selfish and cowardly Nazis who would "backstab" their own leader just because she had the compassion to help the immigrants - the lowest an individual can sink" and Germany's image in the eyes of the world will be ruined. Everybody will think that the years between 1933 and 1945 show our true nature. Germans as a people are very much afraid to lose their face.
People out there often have no idea the other nations start to dislike us because we brought so many muslims into the EU. I told them but they did not believe me.

Do you understand? Our culture is complicated.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Yessica » 19 Oct 2015, 07:46

What I described in the post above. I just tried to sum up what some people do think to my mind.

Still 10.000 are entering our country everyday. The conditions in the camps are cold and damp. Already refugees are treatening to set their tents on fire to protests against their acommodation. Yet it is not even REALLY cold now. Currently temperatures are +5 degreescelcius but in the winter month they will reach - 25 degrees and sleeping in a tent might be deadly then.

Meanwhile it is hard for me to believe that this is real. Our politicians cannot be that blind can they? I feel like a person who just did not wake up from a dream one morning and the dream gets less and less realistic.

You kn ow, one of this dreams that start just normal but things become stranger and stranger and suddenly you find yourself on the moon having tea with a talking cow... and you realize that you are asleep. For me that is always the moment when I wake up.

I wouldn't be surprised if my alarm clock rang and I realized that there were no open borders and few refugees and my brain made all of this up.

There are people who are worried or angry or a combination of both but it's funny I don't feel anything like this. I am juat feeling detached lke a person looking at this from outside.
My husband shares this kind of feeling and who knows how many other people do.

The Focus magazine has some info according to which there could be 7,36 million new citizens this year if you add family reunions. http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland ... 95435.html

That's the immigration of one year alone.

What we learn about the values some of the newcomers hold should scare us. Read here from a German (centre left) news source: http://www.zeit.de/2015/40/religion-gla ... eutschland

Like I said. I do not even feel scared anymore but I have no idea why not.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Nathan » 19 Oct 2015, 19:23

Have you started seeing refugees in your area, Yessica? I know all about the Königsteiner key (which we don't have here, by the way, refugees are largely just sent to the cheapest areas wherever there is space), but Saxony doesn't seem to have to take that many compared to the other states and I've heard stories of refugees just running away from their camps in more rural areas and re-registering in whichever city they like the idea of living in more.

In one sense I am glad this is happening so suddenly because it's accelerating the change in public opinion that was always going to happen anyway. When I think about how drastic some of the changes in German political history have been compared to British history though, like after the end of the two world wars and in 1989-90, I'm just in disbelief that this has been allowed to go on for six or eight weeks now and nothing has changed at all, no serious pressure to topple the government.

I'm just reading this Spiegel article about the Pegida protest going on in Dresden this evening and I'm seeing the same clichéd old words: "xenophobe", "hate", the same clichéd interviews with left-wing groups warning against the rise of the "extreme right". Are there any German newspapers that are starting to be more critical of what is going on than before, Yessica?
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Jonathan » 20 Oct 2015, 22:12

Another virtue is loyality. We have voted for her, now stick to it. "The one who says A must say B", lack of loyality is seen as despicable in our culture.

However they think everybody is looking at us and when we speak out they will say "Look at those "backstabbing" Germans. Yes, I always knew they were a bunch of selfish and cowardly Nazis who would "backstab" their own leader...


I keep getting surprised over and over again how the same word can mean such different things to different people. When you said 'loyalty' I was nodding in agreement... but a few lines later I was shaking my head in astonishment.

The loyalty you described is loyalty to a politician, or a party.
The loyalty I was thinking of was loyalty between friends, especially in adversity. For example, some request has been stuck in government bureaucracy for three months, so you ask a friend whose cousin works there and he pokes around and tells you the case was closed 2 months ago but no-one notified him. Or you need your passport renewed but it takes 3 weeks and your flight is tomorrow... etc.

This loyalty acts as a counterweight to established hierarchies.
The other loyalty reinforces established hierarchies.

I wonder which of the two other readers were thinking of? Or perhaps they understood something completely different.


However they think everybody is looking at us and when we speak out they will say "Look at those "backstabbing" Germans. Yes, I always knew they were a bunch of selfish and cowardly Nazis who would "backstab" their own leader...


It really is astonishing that Germans could think this. I think the truth is exactly the opposite. Perhaps I am mistaken in thinking that the opinion I am trying to express is universally shared outside of Germany. But I would say that the primary accusation against the German people is that they followed their leaders too readily. And today they say, 'we must continue to follow our leaders or people will think we have not learned'?

I wonder if this sense of loyalty predated the second world war. If so, it would mean that there are certain cultural traits that even a cataclysm cannot undo. Alternatively, perhaps its value was inflated as a result of the war. From what I have read, the German Generals often appealed to this sense of loyalty (using the word honor) to explain their actions. Perhaps before the war no-one would have said that they would do such-and-such things out of loyalty. But war has its own logic, and having been led slowly into terrible deeds, and not finding any easy escape, they magnified loyalty's importance to explain their actions. And they bequeathed this sense of loyalty to their children, who are now guided by it. It is a strange world.


Do you understand? Our culture is complicated.


I understand that there is so much about people and their cultures that I don't understand. This is no small thing - if this sense were universally shared, Multiculturalism would die within a day.

You explain your culture rather well, Yessica, I always learn something from your posts. I hope I have not said anything to discourage you from speaking freely. I have not had the time to compose my thoughts properly - to be honest, I should not be up at all at this hour - but I really wanted to reply, and did not want the conversation to pass me by. Please forgive me if I have transgressed.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Yessica » 21 Oct 2015, 09:45

Nathan,

we do live in Nordrhein-Westfalen now. It's a rural place but still refugees have arrived now though they do not live in our direct neighbourhood. There is a little wood and there is something like a little playground in the woods and a retirement home. I used to go there with my sons, there were always mothers and kids and the old people sitting on a bench and looking at the kids... but the last time I went there there were no mommies and no old people (though the reason for the old people being inside probably was the weather), there were some refugee men and I don't know it was just a feeling but it felt like some where habouring hostile feelings towards us. The looked at us without a smile and one was making a funny sound like a hiss.
I left and there were some walking down the path and making the same funny sound. I hurried home and never went there again.

I noticed this stare in other people from the region before. Maybe it has a completly different meaning there, may be Jonathan can tell me, but in my culture it is seen as inpolite to stare at a person especially if the person is a woman and you are a man or even worse a bunch of men.

They told us to have our children vaccinated because they might bring illnesses but I cannot do this because my younger son cannot have his second measels-mumps-rubella shot until he is 18 months old. I am worried.

To be honest I think that Pegida is really Nazi... most unfortunately. Last Monday they had invited Akif Pirincci, who is Turkish by the way, which makes it even more weird, and he praised concentration camps. I wish people like him could just shut up.

It is so annoying that there is no one opposed to this who is not right wing in the political field. All our big parties support this and the AfD does not seem to be trustworthy. They have right wind extremist in their ranks, moarchists, christian fundamentalists, you name it, the have it.

A while ago news station like n-tv and N24 had become quite critical of the uncontrolled immigration but since that happened they focus their critic on hate speech.

I think "Die Welt" und "FAZ" have some critical articles and do you know "Die Achse des Guten"? Did I mention them.

Jonathan,

please keep in mind that I am pretty young and never studied this topic but let me try to explain.
Seeing loyality as a primary virtue seems to be nothing that is new in our culture. We have nine different words for loyality which all describe a different aspect of the virtue and it's difficult to translate. I am talking about something called Treue here.
Let's look back at the middle ages. Back then they had a word called triuwe and it ment the uncoditional loyality a vassal was supposed to have to an overlord. Back in the day people believed God arranged it to be this way. Fast forward the word Treue exists in our culture which derrives from triuwe and it means this form of loyality.
We also have an other word called Loyalität and it means another form of loyality.

I don't think we could say we have Treue towards our cousin. If my cousin helps me sometimes and sometimes I help him it cannot be called Treue because both parties are equal and both do benefit. We can say we have Loyalittät towards our cousin and we can also call it "Vetternwirtschaft" ("Cousin's economy") and there are many people who think that this is a rather negative value - positive for the individual but negative from the point of view of the whole society and actually a lot of people say that it is a middle eastern value.

Personally I am not a very loyal person. I do think loyality can border stupidity. So, you see - Germans are different. We are not one uniform mass. But then people say that this is un-german about me. When we were kids and played board games I was a little intrguer. Sometimes I made pacts with others just to break them when it served me and people called me "The Southerner" for it because of the stereotype that this is what people in the south of europe do.
I think it also depends a bit on the social class and that the somewhat higher social class people are less loyal. That's also a stereotype about the people of the somewhat higher social class.

It is true that the Nazi soldiers swore an oath of Treue, but it is actually not like the Nazis made this up. It is just something that existed before. Soldiers before that swore an oath of Treue, too, and soldiers after that swore an oath and they still do. Like you probably know we do have a draft - though it was paused a few years ago - and this means that most of the young men in our country did swear an oath in which they basically swear loyal service to the federal republic. They do not swear Treue towards Angela Merkel but since she is the chancellor and the population voted for her it includes Treue towards her a bit.

So, you see, this kind of loyality is seen as a democratic value because the population voted. So how can I say this, for some people Angela Merkel is not Angela Merkel but "the federal republic". You understand? The people voted her into power so that she is a symbol of the will of the people - a symbol of what the people want.

Now people might not really have wanted uncontrolled immigration, but they say "that is just a fear, you are fearful and Angela Merkel as an elected leader says "We can do this".
You know politicians in my country are good at making people who don't agree with them look low. They say they are fearful, they are hateful and thus missing a historic moment to do good because of the petty little feelings they habour in their hearts.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Yessica » 21 Oct 2015, 12:02

Let me add something too what I just said about Treue. There is something we call Verfassungstreue - Treue to the constitution.

All civil servants in Germany (and that's many) swear an oath of Treue to the constitution. That's seen as an antidote to the Nazi time and I agree with that. Our constitution is also seen as an antidote to the Nazi time and it says "All persons who are persecuted for political reasons will be granted asylum".
There is some controversy. Typically conservative parties say "this is only true if they did not enter via a safe country" and to my mind that makes a lot of sense.

Can the constitution be altered? Yes, this is possible and has been done in the past but it is typically not done.

So the ones who agree with Merkel's politics can just say that the ones who don't, don't like the constitution and are Nazis or that they broke their oath (if they are civil servants).

In our schools there is a kind of teachers who tell us we have a little Nazi inside of us (and I think that this is just plain wrong. We are no worse then other people). They say that if we stop being loyal to the federal republic, the constitution and our leaders we will regress to the state of barbary and I think it is the reason why the constitution is rarely altered. In any other country they would have said "alter the constitution to say "Persecuted persons will be granted asylum as long as it does not endanger the stability of our country".

Writing this I feel like a Nazi and I don't even want to alter the constitution (I just want the people who arrived via safe countries to stayin those safe countries)... but even writing about that is legally possible on a theoretical basis to alter the constitution feels very bad.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Yessica » 26 Oct 2015, 15:54

A few things:

* I realized that what I just wrote made it sound like we were all a bit odd. I just tried to explain how some people and mostly the ones who are not very well educated think. I think it depends a lot on social class because they say the ones from the lower classes are a lot more loyal or also a bit authoritarian
* What I said about Akif Pirincci seems to be wrong. So sorry. As it seems the words were taken out of context by nearly all the bis news papers and news channels. He was talking about a citizen, who was told that he could leave the country if he did not like refugee camps near him. Here is what he seems to have said
Akif Pirincci wrote:Most obviously the powerful totally lost the fear of and the respect for the (German) people, so that they can tell him [...] to leave the country if he does not parry. There are alternatives but unfortunately the concentration camps are out of order

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 58589.html

So while this is not really tasteful to me it is very clear that he does not want concentration camps.

I am a bit shocked that nearly all the news sources got that wrong.

* Jonathan, a question: A pegida demonstration on Novermber 9th (day of the beer hall putsch, when Hitler tried to seize power in 1923 and the Kritallnacht, but also the day the German wall came down and that is why Pegida chose it) has been forbidden because it would be offensive for jews. Do you as a jew think this is offensive?

Our government will start mass deportions of people who don't qualify for asylum now or so they say. There are three major problems: 1) because of the open borders policy we have no idea who is in the country, 2) people who destroyed their documents (a majority of asylum seekers) cannot be deported, 3) people who are to be deported tend to disappear

This year only 10.000 people where deported so far.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Nathan » 27 Oct 2015, 21:00

Yessica wrote:
* Nathan, a question: A pegida demonstration on Novermber 9th (day of the beer hall putsch, when Hitler tried to seize power in 1923 and the Kritallnacht, but also the day the German wall came down and that is why Pegida chose it) has been forbidden because it would be offensive for jews. Do you as a jew think this is offensive?



As I'm not Jewish I'll hand that question over to Jonathan :p
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Yessica » 28 Oct 2015, 08:01

Yes, I know, I know. *blush* That's embarrassing. I did not sleep much that night and had to write quickly as long as the baby slept and I did not have the time to re-read.

Jonathan and Nathan, please take my apologies.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Jonathan » 30 Oct 2015, 22:28

The looked at us without a smile and one was making a funny sound like a hiss... I noticed this stare in other people from the region before.


I've never experienced that, myself, but it sounds like plain old intimidation. And I'm guessing that if you were walking down that road in the company of eight young German men, you wouldn't have heard any hisses or felt any stares.

I hurried home and never went there again.


This is quite an understandable reaction for an individual, especially for a woman with children. It is also an act of surrender. That little playground in the woods has taken one little step on the way to becoming part of Dar-Al-Islam. If the German people does not organize to oppose this, then the policy of the German people will be the sum of all these little surrenders - one big surrender.

I am not suggesting that you, personally, should have acted otherwise. I, personally, have never performed great feats of courage in the face of hostile intimidation. Others have. Let me tell a few short stories from my experience, perhaps they will provide another perspective.


There is a fresh-water spring by the dead sea called Ein Fasha. It's about 45 minutes away by car, has lots of shade, picnic tables, greenery, little streams of running water and pools - all in the middle of the desert. It's very nice. It's also frequented by lots of Arab families, and the road goes straight through the occupied territories via Jericho. So you think twice about going, but you feel like a coward. So we went with another family, so we wouldn't feel alone. We got there early in the morning, got a good table right by the water, and let the children play. Half an hour later an Arab family takes the table 5 meters away. They eat, we eat, no problem, but nothing is done together, either. Their children are the same age as mine, but they don't play together (I'm not saying it could never happen, but it didn't). Two hours later I'm walking down the stream with my two-year old, and a small stone skids by me. I look back and see their 5-year-old running away from me. He threw the stone, of course.

Another story. You may have seen on the news that there have been a lot of stabbing attacks in Israel over the last month. Random Arabs with no connection to organized terrorists suddenly pull out a knife and stab whoever they can before being shot dead. And of course, all of the cleaners and construction workers in the building where I work are Arabs. One day after work I enter an elevator and see an Arab and Jew, chatting together about how horrible the situation is. It warmed my heart. At the ground floor the Arab walked out, and as soon as the doors closed the Jew turned to me and said 'You never know, these days'. At the end of the next day I entered the elevator - three Arabs. Of course I was worried, but in I went, like it was nothing. It wasn't quite nothing, though. Nothing happened - of course.

I do have a point here, somewhere. We went back to Ein Fasha. I walk into that same elevator every day. Sometimes the best you can do is go on about your daily life. Some people are braver than others, some more stubborn, some have other responsibilities which they cannot abandon (e.g. children). In Israel there are Jews who live in the West Bank, who face attacks and intimidation every day. I have relatives who used to live in a neighborhood which was bombed with mortar bombs every few weeks. Even if you think their presence there is utterly unjustified, the courage they show in going about their daily lives is the same courage which you will need. Most of the world thinks they are crazy provocateurs who deserve whatever happens to them. Some people in Israel also think that. Of course, most of the world can't understand why anyone would want to live in the middle east, and any Jew living anywhere in Israel looks like a crazy provocateur who deserves whatever happens to him.

My point is that if no stand is made, then two, or ten, or twenty years from now the only way you will be able to go to that little playground in the woods is surrounded by a phalanx of stone-faced German men, to get you past a shouting mob throwing stones or worse - and of course the press will rush to say that you are a crazy provocatuer who deserves whatever happens to her.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Jonathan » 30 Oct 2015, 22:59

Jonathan, a question: A pegida demonstration on Novermber 9th (day of the beer hall putsch, when Hitler tried to seize power in 1923 and the Kritallnacht, but also the day the German wall came down and that is why Pegida chose it) has been forbidden because it would be offensive for jews. Do you as a jew think this is offensive?


When I read the explanation as you write it, then no, of course it is not offensive.
But if I read about it in a newspaper, it would be written very differently. "Right-wing extremists celebrate kristallnacht with xenophobic rally". Of course, that description would make it sound offensive.
Regardless, the self-determination of the German people takes priority over any offense which a coincidence of dates might cause. And it would be very easy to clarify why the date was chosen, and why it was not. And, of course, the newspapers would ignore any reasonable explanation, or even an apologetic one. This is like English workplaces outlawing piggy banks because some Muslim might take offense - even though no complaint was actually made.

I have been occasionally trying to follow (and understand) what is happening with these Pegida rallies, and I've come to distrust everything I read about them in the media. The Israeli papers are unreliable on this topic. I read a while back that someone found a picture of one of the founders giving the Nazi salute twenty years ago. He was branded a Nazi and forced to resign. Maybe he is, and thank God they kicked him out. And maybe he was drunk at a party and did something stupid and shameful. The newspapers never consider the second option. At least, not the ones I managed to find. Twenty years, and the man did nothing which might be weighed in the balance against that one instance? The truth doesn't seem to matter. So I don't think I really know anything about Pegida, but I know I'd like to.

Maybe I'm the one who keeps trying to see what he wants to see. I keep hoping to see a surge in popularity of a center-right ideology to counter the dominance of the left, and provide an alternative to the extremism on the right.


P.S. I fould the explanations about Treue very interesting, but I didn't want to pull the conversation onto a tangent. Please don't take my silence as a lack of interest.
P.P.S. I found this article by Christopher Caldwell, which was rather well-thought-out, in my opinion:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/ ... tml?page=1
I read a comment about it on david thompson's blog which is too good not to quote:

And there [in the NYT] you have the consensus reading of Europe’s migration crisis in all its moral complexity...those uneasy about migration are as bad as Hitler.

Earlier in the same article:

“Oh, Hitler!” said Abdullateef D., a 32-year-old who arrived in Germany from Syria five months ago. “Good man!”

So the Great and Good are accusing the Right of being closet Nazi sympathizers for objecting to the immigration of open Nazi sympathizers.
bgates


P.P.P.S Nathan and Jonathan are just 2 letters apart :)
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Yessica » 06 Nov 2015, 10:15

Jonathan,

I had both of my boys with me and I didn't want them to be scared or even hurt. I think being virtuos on behalf of others is not a good thing. Just like our politicians. So compassionate but others have to pay the price.
As a mother I see it as my duty to shelter my children from things that might scare them.

Pegida: I do think that Lutz Bachmann is not a Nazi. He just said that Heiko Maas (Federal minster of justice and consumer protection) was like Goebbels. He cannot stand Maas. If he liked Goebbels he would not have said that. I followed the documentation of the Pegida rallies on TV, some did chant "No Nazis" at their rallies and some carried signs "No communists, no Nazis, no Islamists". It is by the way interesting that you see this just in the news of the commercial TV channels but not in the news of the government funded ones. We do have a lot of government founded programmes. To name a few
* ARD
* ZDF
* BR
* HR
* MDR
* NDR
* RBB
* SR
* SWR
* WDR

Nathan might have noticed that their reporrting about the refugee politics is not very critical but that their are very critical of critics of ther current politics.
We also do have a number of statefunded newspapers and radio stations.
People (including me) used to have a high trust in the statefunded media. The "Tageschau", the news of ARD, is the most watched news programme in Germany.

People don't like the news of the private channels so much, because the have too much reporting on soccer stars and boob models, but now many people feel that the state news are not being objective.

I would not say that there are no Nazis at the Pegida rallies. Dresden has a big right wing extremist scene and though Pegida has tried to distance themselves from them some of them might have joined in... just like rallies for higher wages, better schools or whatever are sometimes joined by left-wing extremists.
I think that there unfortunately might be a number of Nazis at their rallies, but I don't think that it is what their movement stands for.

I think Pegida does not matter that much, what is important is how people will vote in 2017. Unfortunately our mainstream anti immigration party just commited "suicide". It was the CDU, Merkel's party, and it seems to have an open borders politics now.

The piublic opinion on the other hand has become quite conservative. The people I know have never been conservatives. They would never have voted CDU - far to right on the political spectrum.- Most voted for the green party but now I realize that most of them seem to be conservatives at heart- may be have been all along but never dared to mention it.
All polls show people are unhappy with the situation and they are afraid of uncontrolled immigration. But the people are just as afraid of the AfD because it is a party they do not know. They are not sure what they want and as I mentioned there are fundamentalist Christians, right wing people and monarchists in the AfD.

In the last local election we saw a huge number of people, who did not vote at all. We had voter turnouts around 30 percent. That's extraordinary low.

PS I just heard that there was another attack on an AfD politician. In the last weeks the car of Beatrix von Storch (AfD) had been torched and yesterday there seems to have been an arson attack on the company of the husband of Hedwig von Beverfoerde. No words of condemnation from the other politicians.
Well, I don't know how to think about the AfD but how other politicians treat them is very telling.

I think it is more and more likely I vote for them if just because they are the lesser of two evils.
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Jonathan » 11 Nov 2015, 20:09

I had both of my boys with me and I didn't want them to be scared or even hurt... As a mother I see it as my duty to shelter my children from things that might scare them.


Of course, you did the right thing. I would expect my wife to do exactly that, in the same circumstances.

I think Pegida does not matter that much, what is important is how people will vote in 2017.


I wonder, though, how someone who voted for Merkel in the last elections might be influenced by going to a Pegida rally. Maybe he goes there and sees a lot of people like himself, no skinheads, no swastikas, and comes home feeling just a little bit less treue towards Merkel. Maybe he speaks to ten friends who didn't vote last time, and this time half of them will vote for... well, for anyone who proposes a sane immigration policy.

...some carried signs "No communists, no Nazis, no Islamists". It is by the way interesting that you see this just in the news of the commercial TV channels but not in the news of the government funded ones. We do have a lot of government founded programmes...People (including me) used to have a high trust in the statefunded media.


Well, now you're getting not just middle-easterners in Germany, but typical middle-east reporting about Germany. To hell with the facts - save the narrative!
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Re: Germany and the refugee crisis

Postby Nathan » 29 Jan 2016, 19:43

I've been working in Germany just outside Munich since the beginning of this week and I'll be here for another month, so at the end I'll write a report of everything refugee-related I observe.

I don't really much to talk about so far though, the refugees haven't been as obviously visible as I'd expected even if every newspaper every day seems to have quite a few refugee-related articles.
Nathan
 
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