These riots...

Examples of social decline, especially in the UK

These riots...

Postby Elliott » 08 Aug 2011, 21:53

Pretty interesting stuff, eh?

It's really come out of nowhere, hasn't it?
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Re: These riots...

Postby Paul » 08 Aug 2011, 22:18

Hot weather + economic conditions (or perceived ones) + pre-existing social tensions + a Police shooting (however rightly, if there is ever a rightly) = Riot.

Mindless, decadent, inhuman.

I've just read on a blog that most of it is gang-related. That is, various gangs are now awarding themselves 'points' (about as meaningful as Blue Peter badges - or less) dependant on how much damage and fire-raising they can cause. "It's all about 'respect', Man".

Really there's no answer to this, nothing you can rationally think of. En masse, so many people are now mentally ill in a purely criminal sense.
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Re: These riots...

Postby George » 09 Aug 2011, 00:31

They were talking on the news this morning about how the rioters are organising most of this over their BlackBerries. Glad to hear they can afford a better phone than I can despite their abject poverty and oppression. :|
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 09 Aug 2011, 01:23

What we are seeing with this outright anarchy is everything Dalrymple has said about British society being proven true. It is horrific, but it was going to happen. I'm not surprised by it, I doubt he is either. In my opinion this is the culmination of anti-conservative policies over the last 20 years. It is sickening, and will I think have massive repercussions.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Elliott » 09 Aug 2011, 01:45

I was going to ask that, Gavin - did people think this would be a "defining" event, in the way that 7/7 was.

For myself, I thought the student riots at Millbank and Whitehall were rather more important. Those rioters were middle-class and educated and they showed contempt for Britain, its history and its heroes (and its Royal Family). It was a signal that the upcoming middle-class are spoilt, entitled little ignorant brats, despite (or because of?) their private education. It showed that an education enables you to justify violence. By contrast what we have here is swarms of illiterate thugs telling us what many people have been thinking for years: multiculturalism has been a slow-burning disaster. Nothing new there, except the scale of it.

And the trouble seems to be spreading. I can't stop thinking of Dalrymple's various quotes about rioting. In short: thugs riot because it's fun, and the educated middle-class riot for "a cause" (and fun, and sex).

This romanticising of mob vandalism continues into the left-wing press, with journalists trying to say these people are "fighting" against "the cuts". Nonsense. (I will probably have an aneurysm if I visit Laurie Penny's blog over the next few weeks!)

And I saw Ken Livingstone interviewed on the BBC News. He was using the riots to "up" himself as a mayoral candidate. I was glad when the BBC interviewer (not a man I've been impressed with in the past) actually said: "You sound like you're electioneering". To Red's credit, he did make a few good points, such as how can you hope to control stuff like this if you're cutting police numbers - seems a crucial question.

It's also amazing that it's taken David Cameron, Boris Johnson and Ed Miliband until now to decide to abandon their respective holidays and come back to London to sort it out. (I'm sure they'll do brilliantly.)

Another thing Red said was "if it's not about the cuts, why hasn't it [riots] happened before?" He pointed to the fact that Britain has been basically riot-free for 30 years. Does anyone have any answers for that? Or could it just happen any time, given a random trigger like this police shooting?
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Re: These riots...

Postby Andy JS » 09 Aug 2011, 01:53

The riots are obviously an awful occurrence but despite that I'm very much looking forward to reading TD's responses to these developments. Sadly, he's once again been proved to be entirely correct: what he has written about the underclass in books like "In Praise of Prejudice" and "Litter" and others give a very useful account of how Britain has come to this sorry state.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Paul » 09 Aug 2011, 01:56

It has simmered under the surface, or been largely suspended because of the good times we've had. A euphoria (a false one) at a new gov't we had in the late 90s which co-incided with the dotcom boom, an unbridled spending spree and the feeling that everyone was well off. Also the plentiful supply of cheap drugs, not forgetting alcohol and the relaxation of controls. Now the party is over and has to be paid for.

The flashpoints have been brewing up for years (since the 1990s) and are linked with developments in the urban music scene and associated events. They didn't kick off then because the economy was better so folk could afford drugs, clothes, bling, etc either by legit jobs or by drug dealing.

Also the urban music scene is no longer predominantly a black thing, all races are involved

Even by 1999 there was a culture of violence developing on the UK urban music scene. A friend of a friend was a well respected music producer but when his child was born he gave up everything and went back to the day job (in a bank) because there was so much violence at events and people were getting shot left right and centre. It's a cultural thing and much of the youth of cities are involved.
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Re: These riots...

Postby George » 09 Aug 2011, 02:56

I was shocked by how steeply the UK's crime rates took off in the late 90s.

Image

Source: http://www.aic.gov.au/en/publications/c ... fi115.aspx

I don't know if the riots are just another expression of increased criminality, but it seems possible.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Andy JS » 09 Aug 2011, 03:02

I apologise for lowering the tone, but this video shows the depths of depravity on show in London at the moment. It shows an injured young man being mugged by people initially pretending to help him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYuMPw6Yi3k
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Re: These riots...

Postby George » 09 Aug 2011, 07:50

There is no doubt that that BBM — Blackberry Messenger — is being used to organise disturbances. Again, I've had multiple sources confirm that this BBM message, encouraging people to loot in Enfield Town, was widely disseminated as early as 2pm on Sunday. It appears to have been the main message that was being shared, although there were variations.

Everyone in edmonton enfield woodgreen everywhere in north link up at enfield town station 4 o clock sharp!!!! Start leaving ur yards n linking up with you niggas. Guck da feds, bring your ballys and your bags trollys, cars vans, hammers the lot!! Keep sending this around to bare man, make sure no snitch boys get dis!!! What ever ends your from put your ballys on link up and cause havic, just rob everything. Police can't stop it. Dead the fires though!! Rebroadcast!!!!!"


We have to be careful not to fan the flames in situations like this, and I am reluctant to reveal the (many) BBM messages that are circulating with instructions for tonight. They are all hard to verify, but generally suggest plans to gather in at least six boroughs in north London.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/0 ... g#block-61

"Guck da feds".

I'm speechless.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 09 Aug 2011, 09:51

I agreed with your post entirely, Elliott. I saw Red Ken on TV too and I thought his attempt to use this to boost his mayoral campaign was a new low for him. Absolutely despicable. In response to his question "Why has this happened now", the answer is not complicated. It is simply that things have declined more and more and an opportunity/excuse presented itself.

To her credit, Diane Abbott was at least condemning the looting and went out on the streets.

I share your feelings about Laurie Penny and hold the BBC accountable for giving her any profile.

I live in south London and last night was terrifying really. It felt like law and order had broken down and you knew that if you called the police no-one would come. But again, I was not at all surprised by this. I have noticed for many years a building tension in society and outright hostility from fellow members of the public. They have their pit bull terriers (vicious dogs), malevolent faces, and you know if you were so much as to look at them for a second then you might be attacked.

There are becoming more, and more, and more of them, because there is no disincentive. There is no disincentive to commit crime either. They are unlikely to be caught, and if they are, then unlikely to be sentenced. And even if sentenced, what's the problem with going to a comfortable room with free board for a while?

The unrestrained policies of the Left have caused this. Damien Thompson dispatched commentary during the night about it.

I lay the blame firmly at the door of the Left, without any question. In response to them, note that none of these people were stealing food, nor are they likely to sell their wares for food. They don't know what poverty is. But they are causing themselves and everyone to be a lot poorer through this behaviour.

I think Britain might now be unrecoverable due to the sheer number of the underclass that has been encouraged to develop. My wife and I will decide whether to leave London temporarily today. We dared not leave last night as there were reports of people being dragged from their cars. Needless to say we have our house on sale anyway and are seeking to move out of London permanently as soon as humanly possible.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 09 Aug 2011, 10:11

I noticed Theresa May's response was to say that the rioting was "totally unacceptable".

Well, I'm glad that was made clear. I suppose some looters stopped in their tracks, reflected while carrying a TV and thought, "Gosh, what I am doing in unacceptable". This made me feel she was somewhat out of touch.

Mr Cameron has just been on the TV saying there will be the number of police who were required yesterday on the streets, but many of us feel a lot stronger measures than that are required.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 09 Aug 2011, 10:13

That is a shocking statistic, George, even for someone who lives among it as I do, and that video, Andy, is deplorable but again not at all surprising. I think actually the lad was lucky to escape with his life.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Constantine » 09 Aug 2011, 11:26

That footage contained in that video is sickening.

Has it really gotten that bad back in Britain?
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Re: These riots...

Postby Elliott » 09 Aug 2011, 12:30

Gavin wrote:I noticed Theresa May's response was to say that the rioting was "totally unacceptable".

Yes, I had a similar reaction to this as you. It seemed disgustingly ineffectual.

As if there was some chance that people would think it "acceptable", until Theresa May valiantly put them right.

Cheers, Theresa!
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