These riots...

Examples of social decline, especially in the UK

Re: These riots...

Postby Michael » 10 Aug 2011, 23:22

It's a bit early, but I was wondering what you all thought solutions might be to this? Specifically, how to 'drain the swamp', so to speak.

I am writing from Canada, and so feel as if I am a bit too removed to be commenting, but I think that one of the first things to do will be to never let the country forget how this came about. Insist forcefully and intelligently that the morally vacuous doctrines of the elite are responsible for forming an underclass that is an embarrassment to the nation.

Second, of course, would be to replace the politicians in charge, to change the direction of the political parties away from multiculturalism and the depraved liberalism that now prevails and towards conserving English society and Western civilization.

Third, and the hardest question, after a shift in politics has taken place, how to reduce the underclass? How to remove welfare dependency? I would suggest some form of National Service required of all able-bodied people below a certain income, subjecting them to a military-style discipline and putting their labur towards infrastructure improvements. This is an extreme answer, however, and I was wondering if anyone here had less radical proposals.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Elliott » 10 Aug 2011, 23:54

Michael wrote:It's a bit early, but I was wondering what you all thought solutions might be to this? Specifically, how to 'drain the swamp', so to speak.
Not that I wish to dictate, but I'd say that's a question for a thread of its own. These riots will leave British society convulsed for a while, and there's a very large story in that (which is what I intended this thread to be for).

The question of "how to deal with the underclass" will certainly be reappraised in the light of these riots, but not for a while.

And here is the real problem: any measures proposed will meet stiff opposition from the very people who created the problem in the first place. As Dalrymple said 11 years ago:

The good doctor wrote:If welfare does not eliminate squalor, we need more welfare; if sex does not bring happiness, we need more sex.


It's hard to put one's finger on why political parties daren't do the right thing. Is it because the media would go crazy? Is it because their political opponents would have a field day accusing them of being old-fashioned? Is it because their core vote is now the very people under our spotlight? Or is it because the Guardian, in spite of being Britain's least popular broadsheet, has huge influence on our culture?
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 11 Aug 2011, 09:50

I would agree this would be best in a new thread.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Paul » 11 Aug 2011, 09:51

Post moved to a new thread - How to deal with the Underclass.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 11 Aug 2011, 10:04

Paul D, would you mind reposting that as a new thread in General "How to deal with the underclass"? Thanks.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Mike » 11 Aug 2011, 10:47

A friend of mine on another forum made the good point (which TD has often made as well) that some changes in urban planning wouldn't hurt. Those horrific concrete "estates" (courtesy of one of TD's favourite villains, Le Corbusier) have no chance in hell of engendering any sense of community or civic pride.

A small factor, perhaps, but one of the few that could at least be addressed in the short to medium term.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Andy JS » 11 Aug 2011, 16:01

Numerous articles are of course being written about the riots and looting at the moment. These are two of the best so far in my opinion:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/th ... dren.thtml

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2011/ ... f-history/
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 11 Aug 2011, 19:59

Apparently the Daily Mail has been selling out and a petition for rioters to "loose all benefits" (seems obvious) has already hit the 100,000 signature threshold. I have to say, though, I thought it was rather sad and telling that even the title of said petition was misspelt!
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Re: These riots...

Postby Laurence » 11 Aug 2011, 20:24

I'm so glad to have been alerted to this forum - I've been reading Dalrymple for years now and he is such an important writer and one of the few talking any sense on political and social issues, it seems!
The benefits petition is obviously very silly - firstly, many of the rioters were too young to be on benefits (and also too young to be sent to prison), secondly, if benefits were cut it would only give them a further excuse for muggings. theft and looting, thirdly, it would not be allowed under the EU Human Rights nonsense.
My preference would be for special strict boot camps to be set up very quickly, run by ex-army veterans, to which all juvenile offenders would be sent, and something similar for the 'adult' offenders in selected prisons. What these people clearly need is to be taught just the absolute basics of civilised behaviour - something that none of them have ever come across in their lives so far, and given their appalling attitude, the only way to do this would be through discipline and, frankly, fear.
Only of course there is no way in a million years this government would do any such thing, and in case all the prisons are already full and they are looking for any reason to release people early. Which means that all these 'tough sentences' being passed now will be a total joke. The thing about our governments now is that they are run by PR men like Blair and Cameron. What they want is to be *seen' to be 'doing something' - the reality is immaterial because in a few weeks everyone will have forgotten about it all and be occupied with the next footballer scandal or where they are going for their winter holiday this year!
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Re: These riots...

Postby Andy JS » 12 Aug 2011, 00:33

JG Ballard's 2003 novel Millennium People featured the counterintuitive concept of middle-class rioting. Unfortunately this now seems to have come to pass in the UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... oting.html
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 12 Aug 2011, 17:10

Great video from Pat Condell on this. It's nice to see Pat post on something other than religion actually.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Andy JS » 13 Aug 2011, 00:48

Peter Oborne, a conservative columnist at the Daily Telegraph, argues that those at the top of British society are as bad as those at the bottom. I don't necessarily agree with this but he makes an interesting case in favour:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peter ... he-bottom/
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Re: These riots...

Postby Elliott » 13 Aug 2011, 03:19

While Googling for images of the Clapham riot, I stumbled across this photo:

Piano

It's part of an advertising campaign. As far as I can tell, an old library building has been converted into luxury apartments.

No doubt my point is pretty clear.
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Re: These riots...

Postby Gavin » 13 Aug 2011, 09:58

Yes, point clear there, Elliott. You see bad values endorsed and encouraged by large corporations and celebrities across the board. In fact the corporations support and encourage the "celebrities" (q.v. "Lady" Gaga, the survivor to Amy Winehouse). It certainly is a sick society.

You also see men perpetually ridiculed and belittled in advertising, by the way. You'll have noticed that when "the man" appears, he is usually portrayed as a nerdy sort of loser who needs to be put in his place by the woman. This is harmful to both of the sexes (not "genders", the sexes).

In reply to you, Andy JS, I also saw the Oborne article, nearly posted it. Like you I thought he did have a point, but the underclass is a problem in its own right.

Funny to see Polly Toynbee persist with the liberal line even after this and be put in her place by Guardian commenters!
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Re: These riots...

Postby Laurence » 13 Aug 2011, 10:14

What would you expect from terminal delusionists like Toynbee, after all! The fact that even Guardian commentators are criticing her suggests some hope - you would think after the most shocking week almost in post-war UK history people might finally realise that something radically different is needed. But don't hold your breath -= all the media and political signs are of a return to 'business as usual'.
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