The Iron Lady

Thoughts on conservatism generally

Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Gavin » 09 Apr 2013, 21:04

A very interesting, balanced discussion taking place here. I'm sure she did make mistakes and I was rather young at the time, but what I like about her was her over-arching message that we are what we make of ourselves. The Left often twist her remark that "there is no such thing as society" but I understand her to have meant, frankly, the same thing as JFK when he asked not what our country can do for us but what we can do for it. Effort, enterprising hard work and courtesy from each individual is enough to make society, without the current fashion for trying to save the world or being offended on behalf of other people who probably weren't even offended in the first place.

The benefits claimant culture of the victim has to go, replaced by the culture of "I'll manage, I'll get by, others have it worse" and "At least I'm free, I will make the best of my life, I'll educate and prove myself". One can understand a grocer's daughter who made it so far on her own merits not having a lot of sympathy for those who seek to depend on the state.

Although there may have been excesses then, I think Mrs Thatcher was right with her core message. One of the excesses was of course the "yuppies" and the "Loadsmoneys", but there are bound to be some of these and I'm sure Mrs Thatcher would have found them distinctly unpleasant given that she, apparently, was a lady of manners. Personally I still don't find them as unpleasant as the Leftist trade unionists like Bob Crow today.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Gavin » 09 Apr 2013, 22:17

By the way, I scraped into a very "good" British university. I hadn't been trained by my state school in the art of exam passing and I managed to convince them to accept me because I had genuinely become very interested in philosophy and could articulate myself clearly.

While there I developed a hatred of many of the privileged types I met, who it seemed to me abused their privilege by being uninterested in work and being vulgar, dismissive and superior towards those around them. They had obviously simply been channelled thorough the system and had no particular ability or enthusiasm for their chosen subjects. I'm no stranger to these types. However, abuse of a principle is different to the principle itself.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Gavin » 09 Apr 2013, 22:43

Behold these knowledgable and worldly-wise young ladies with their informed views on the complex politics of Mrs Thatcher:

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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Nathan » 09 Apr 2013, 22:47

If only we had a news reporter out there to ask them on live TV what they actually know about Mrs Thatcher... If work doesn't get in the way I'd like to line the route of the funeral procession next week, only I have no idea what kind of scenes I might see there. So sad that we've come to this, particularly after she had been out of public life for so long.

Still, millions of people are seeing the boundaries of taste and decency being well and truly broken here, just as millions are waking up to how the Left has suppressed and twisted any debate on mass immigration and the EU. We now know it's not just a few conspiracy-theorist oddballs in cyberspace who are talking about how vile these people can be.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Charlie » 09 Apr 2013, 22:57

That picture is really something. They look like English students, say from Germany - you know, the ones who walk around London and Cambridge in "Cambridge University" hoodies - only for some grotty oiks from the Socialist Worker to shove some propaganda into their hands.

Most incongruous. Or stupid.

Probably stupid. It is the UK.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Gavin » 09 Apr 2013, 23:09

I hope you can make it, Nathan, but take care! I won't be around London at that time, unless I go down specially. Maybe - it would be nice to meet up.

There are loads more sickening pictures at the link (if you click on the previous one). Lefties drinking out of bottles of champagne while they would no doubt condemn the champagne companies. Dancing, grinning, etc.

When Osama Bin Laden died I just said nothing. It is sad when someone dies but he was a mass murderer bent on killing civilians in the west (not to mention his fellow Muslims via suicide, while he continued to live). I suppose I thought it only right, but there was not much need to comment really. Job done. But these lefties have no grace, no decency or humanity at all. I hope all of those photographed committing criminal offences will be arrested and brought to justice. But then this is modern Britain, not Mrs Thatcher's era.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Nathan » 09 Apr 2013, 23:25

Oh, for goodness' sake - the BBC really is becoming a parody of itself here:

Margaret Thatcher 'unabashedly racist' - Australian foreign minister
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Elliott » 10 Apr 2013, 01:17

I just wonder what the Australian guy knows (if anything!) about many areas of Britain, the country whose example she was encouraging him to learn from.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Caleb » 10 Apr 2013, 02:59

Elliott wrote:Apparently there are calls for a statue of Baroness Thatcher to be placed in Trafalgar Square. Regardless of the merits, I think this would be a bad idea simply because it would be a magnet for vandalism - both by the uneducated and, ironically, the "educated".


There's that reason, but I think there's another reason too. I personally don't think any person, especially a political figure, should have a public statue within (or close to) his or her lifetime. Firstly, I think time needs to pass to get any real perspective on such a person's level of importance for society. Secondly, and as part of that, it avoids a cult of personality or charges of it being politically motivated.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Mike » 10 Apr 2013, 04:08

Elliott wrote:I just wonder what the Australian guy knows (if anything!) about many areas of Britain, the country whose example she was encouraging him to learn from.


It's a good point actually, but the obverse is also worth considering. That is to say, the immigration and subsequent assimilation of East Asians in Australia over the past thirty years has actually been, I would argue, a great success. Thatcher was probably speaking there from the British experience, where a large proportion of migrants came from the western and central parts of Asia, notably Pakistan. The difference there scarcely needs pointing out...

As for Bob Carr...he's an interesting figure. Nominally he's a Labour man, but he doesn't have the union background that so many of the Labour Party figures here in Australia have (he was a journalist originally), and his own ideological position has always been a bit hard to define. As a matter of fact, he's drawn criticism from the left here recently for his links to the US.

He was state premier here in NSW for a long period, and he did some good things in that time, but many of the figures in his cabinet were notoriously corrupt. (Having said that, the nominally conservative government that preceded him was also notably corrupt.)

He was basically parachuted from nowhere to the position as foreign minister. Basically the Labour Party wanted someone moderately credible and experienced in that role, and no-one within the existing parliament fit the bill. And he's been a bit of a mixed bag as foreign minister.

What is notable, though, is that if you read through the entire piece you find that his view of Thatcher is actually broadly positive - but the headline (and the below-the-tab headline) both make it sound as if he's lambasting her. Shoddy journalism in my book.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Gavin » 10 Apr 2013, 08:57

Caleb wrote:I personally don't think any person, especially a political figure, should have a public statue within (or close to) his or her lifetime.


That's an interesting perspective and I think I might agree with you. But I wonder slightly if we take his view because we have been encouraged to be less confident of western values these days.

This statue of Disraeli that stands in Parliament Square was erected only two years after his death. Do you think they should probably not have erected statues so readily in the past either?

It's funny how they could erect them then and they would not be defaced by those who disagreed, now they daren't do it. Mob rule. What is the difference ultimately, I wonder, between mob rule and democracy, especially as society becomes ever more populated by vulgarians!
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Gavin » 10 Apr 2013, 09:18

Speaking of statues, Ken Livingstone (the socialist Mayor of London), backed by Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown, spent £100,000 of British taxpayers' money on a legal case to have one of Nelson Mandela erected in Parliament Square and he is not even British. For Mr Mandela it was very much an issue of colour: he said it fulfilled a dream for there to be a statue of a black man in Parliament Square.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Gavin » 10 Apr 2013, 10:45

Dan Hodges' hopes were in vain. We thought we would see spite from many over-indulged young lefties and so it has proven. They should use profits from sales of the record to fund that statue.
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Nathan » 10 Apr 2013, 10:55

Anybody who remembers the Silver Jubilee can feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the BBC ban the Sex Pistols' "God Save the Queen" (and even rig the charts so it wouldn't get to number one so they wouldn't have to play it?) because they thought it was indecent and disrespectful in the context? This song is much more disrespectful, but I'm not holding my breath for the same consideration to be taken into account.

Can anyone else imagine TD sitting there right now writing an despairing article about the public response to Thatcher's death?
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Re: The Iron Lady

Postby Gavin » 10 Apr 2013, 14:24

Perhaps he is doing so. I just read this excellent article by him on Europe's sad decline and America's prospects.

John Redwood has just been on the television giving a fine speech, without notes, paying respect to Mrs Thatcher (he worked closely with her). I didn't hear Cameron's or Miliband's - perhaps that's for the best. Her passing really brings them into focus.

Malcolm Rifkind is speaking now. He is echoing Redwood by saying that Mrs Thatcher (at least in early terms) always sought the opinion of all around her - she was just very rigorous and (rightly) expected them to be able to explain their reasoning. He also mentioned that she refused to sell weapons to South Africa - the Left ignore all such policies. Again, Rifkind is old-school. Articulate, educated, informed, entertaining.
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